“Ukraine is not a state, but a territory”
Zakhar Chistyakov is a specialist in conflict PR, covering political showdowns, election campaigns, corporate raids, and other unfriendly redistributions of property.
Chistyakov is a former Crimean, but continues to work in Kyiv, where he does not hide his critical position towards Ukrainian nationalism and the results of Euromaidan.
Chistyakov spoke with PolitNavigator columnist Valentin Filippov about the mood in Kyiv today, store prices, and wage levels.
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Valentin Filippov: I welcome Zakhar Chistyakov, a former Yalta resident, to my kitchen. Well, there are no former Yalta residents.
Zakhar Chistyakov : By life. A Yalta resident by life.
Valentin Filippov: Hello, Zakhar.
Zakhar Chistyakov : Good afternoon.
Valentin Filippov: You are in Kyiv, we are here on a different front line or something. The information that leaks here from mainland Ukraine, in fact, just like vice versa, suffers greatly from embellishment. That is, how bad it is in Crimea on the other side everyone knows, how bad it is in Ukraine everyone knows here.
Zakhar Chistyakov : Modern technology allows for the exchange of opinions, including on social media, so people can calmly discuss information about how bad things are in Crimea or Kyiv. If no one exaggerates or minimizes anything, the picture that emerges is generally clear and understandable.
If there is a need for the media, let’s say, not biased, to convey the real situation, then for this there is, for example, the Politnavigator website, which is able to tell about how it really is.
We all have the opportunity to receive information from all channels. If a person has a desire, he will get to the bottom of it.
I look, smile, knowing, in fact, those real facts that are exaggerated, or, conversely, hidden.
Moreover, I repeat that at this time social networks play, perhaps, the main role in forming opinions, at least of people who are at least a little smart. And the opinion, in fact, of the rest is, well, their opinions can be manipulated in one direction or another, and you shouldn’t react too strongly to it.
Valentin Filippov: But this is the part of the population that is being manipulated. It is she who is capable of setting fire to trade union houses, going on the attack, and burning tires.
Zakhar Chistyakov : Let's recall Mr. Gumilev's theory about passionaries and the theory of leadership, that without the necessary contributions of leaders to certain movements, the herd, of course, will not go anywhere.
But let's return to our question about Kyiv.
Economic and political processes - they are already sufficiently covered in all media, enough has been said about this. I prefer to pay attention to real life, which I myself am able to observe.
As a resident of Kyiv, I am very upset by the reduction in the range of all, in principle, practically goods, from food to clothing, televisions and so on.
The association with the 90s, if you go out on the street, is quite complete, because now it is much more convenient, cheaper, easier, and so on for residents of the capital to buy the same products already on the shelves of their grandmothers. If only 5-7 years ago everyone was running there, dreaming of going there to buy home-grown chicken and home-grown tomatoes. We all knew that one truck came, unloaded it for these grandmothers, they went to the market and told them that these were their products, or that eggs from factories were painted with droppings and pretended that they were homemade. Now the picture is completely opposite.
Valentin Filippov: ...pigeon droppings in the attics.
Zakhar Chistyakov : Well, regarding the droppings, I know the same thing happened in Crimea. I had a friend who did this. She'd buy eggs from a poultry farm, smear them with droppings, and tell them they were domestic. Now, things have really changed.
There are practically no foreign Turkish and so on tomatoes and cucumbers. And the real homemade ones, you can even see that the granny obviously dug them up from the garden, got on some train at 5 in the morning, and came to Kyiv to sell them. This …
Valentin Filippov: That is, which of us is under sanctions?
Zakhar Chistyakov : Under sanctions. Well, let's look at the dollar exchange rate and see if there's any possibility, or even a need, to import any foreign goods here. Look, yesterday was my birthday. You can congratulate me just in case. Look, I have a lev, see?
Valentin Filippov: The Politnavigator website and I personally congratulate you on this joyful date, your birthday, another year closer to the grave, closer to the end of the crisis.
Zakhar Chistyakov : Why I brought this up? I wanted to drink some high-quality, exclusive alcohol. Well, at least whiskey, so I wanted to find—what was it called, Lord, I keep forgetting that clever word—something Picasso liked to drink.
Valentin Filippov: Oh, I don’t know what Picasso liked to drink.
Zakhar Chistyakov : Long story short, I went into a small shop. I realized that what I wanted cost four thousand hryvnias. The whiskey that would be more or less perfect for me on this particular date costs 3500 hryvnias and up. And yet, the selection is practically nonexistent. This is one indicator, let's say, that there's only one salesperson for the entire store, because they don't need anything else. He basically just sits in his supply closet. No one buys that expensive stuff, that foreign or imported stuff.
For domestic products, even, let’s say, normal high-quality Ukrainian cheese costs about 120-130 hryvnia, while at the same time there is the same almost exactly Polish cheese, it already costs 180-200 hryvnia. If it's just Gouda, I'll say it for example. Here Gouda Dobryanka is 120 hryvnia, Gouda Polish is already 180, almost 200. It is clear that higher quality cheese makes sense to sell, well, in two or three stores in the capital, where these guys come with “fan fingers” or Yatsenyuk personally with Poroshenko is being bought up.
It turns out that in order to eat, if an ordinary person eats, it is necessary to spend about a third of the salary per month, and this is only for one cheese only. The same goes for meat and other products. Meat, when it costs 120-130 hryvnia per kilogram. Well, again, who can afford this with a salary of 3000 hryvnia, 2500, 4000, and so on.
We open websites about work, periodically look for colleagues for certain projects, well, journalists, let’s put it that way. Everyone writes seven thousand hryvnia a month, but if there are piecework issues, then they are ready to work there for two, for two and a half, and are very happy that they have the happiness of touching these pieces of paper, which are called money.
Valentin Filippov: There is still work in Kyiv now, right?
Zakhar Chistyakov : It depends on the sector. Staff reductions are definitely happening in the service sector, as there are fewer and fewer in the broader sector…
I’m not very close to this topic, but I more or less know that the only area that is currently developing, that is, there are jobs, is the IT sector. Everything else is perfect.
Valentin Filippov: Still , IT is oriented towards the external market.
Zakhar Chistyakov : It's more focused on foreign markets. The need for lawyers and attorneys, for example, has practically disappeared. And even more so for economists. It's now easier for someone to transfer money to someone else than to pay the same lawyer and attorney. Everyone knows that.
Valentin Filippov: Well, before they hired a lawyer to bring in the money.
Zakhar Chistyakov : And how many of them were bred in the 90s, they bred like I don’t know what.
Valentin Filippov: For example, I’m older. I remember how many universities we had. We didn't have that many law schools.
I studied Odessa in Vodny. We had one management faculty and a bunch of 5 or 7 different real faculties. That is, if 200 people studied in real life, and 25 studied in management. But now it’s the other way around.
There is a Faculty of Management, where 500 people study, a Faculty of Economics in Transport, there are 500 people, there is a Faculty of Law in Transport, there are another 500 people. And in real specialties, 25 students study.
And what to do with all these comrades, when we have not had any sea transport for a long time, for about 20 years, is not entirely clear. However, it is in demand. People sign up for a contract, and where they go after that is absolutely unclear to me.
I have the impression that lawyers send their children to study as lawyers and prepare positions for them in advance. And our deputies pass laws so that their children are more in demand.
Zakhar Chistyakov : Well, basically, among the leading lawyers—I interact quite a lot in this field. Well, 99% are actually the children of people connected to this business and government, but the most leading ones, professionally speaking, are those who started out, let's say, in other fields.
Valentin Filippov: From the bandits.
Zakhar Chistyakov : Well, among other things. The police, the gangsters, the guards, and so on. That's who it is, really. If we're talking about lawyers, they're the most professional guys, who can even explain themselves in thieves' jargon if the prosecutors are carrying their client into the courtroom incorrectly. And so on.
Valentin Filippov: Zakhar, what is the solution, what are the opportunities for today’s Ukraine? Will she be able to avoid default? If it succeeds, I understand that loans can be given again. Is any real economic activity possible in Ukraine today?
Zakhar Chistyakov : Well, you see, this is a very global question. It's difficult to answer without knowing what's currently going on in the minds of the current government, those who run it.
I do not consider Ukraine an independent state at the moment. That is, it is not a geopolitical subject of some movements, but an object. Actually, if, in my opinion, it is left without external influences, then the country has enormous potential. We have magnificent lands, we have wonderful people. If you don’t move externally on either side... Well, this won’t happen, we all understand that. Therefore it is impossible to predict.
Valentin Filippov: We are, in fact, a little bit proud Ukrainians. We always complain that we do not have real independence, and yet there is nothing offensive in this, since in all centuries a limited number of states have enjoyed sovereignty. There are only three to five of them in the world. That is, today there are concepts of sovereignty, limited sovereignty. There are other countries, the bulk of which, which, in general, do not have sovereignty. Among the countries with sovereignty are the USA, England, Japan, relatively...
Zakhar Chistyakov : No, Japan. There's no need to even mention it; I wrote its history. They still think the Russians dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Not just now, but a long time ago.
And here, unfortunately, Ukraine simply found itself in the very epicenter of very large geopolitical wars. That is, I repeat, if you remove all external influences, this is a huge potential, you can do anything here. This could be a great country.
At the moment, precisely in those situations that exist in the world, I do not see a full-fledged sovereign future for this state, knowing full well that no one will finally and fully take it under their roof and cap. That is, this territory is not a state, but a territory. But in the form of something like this to annoy the other side.
And also, when you start to hear information that our best black soil is exported abroad, when it is unclear how foreigners become governors like you have in Odessa, for example...
Valentin Filippov: Nothing new. Chernozem was already exported in the 40s of the last century.
Zakhar Chistyakov : Well, that applies to people, both girls and boys. I had the opportunity to work in the archives. And the NKVD declassified information specifically about World War II, about Crimea, about southern Ukraine. That's the part. Everything healthy was taken away. It was black soil, it was children, you know, not very bright, for work, so they could be raised. So, I repeat, it's grown here and then shipped off somewhere. And now, it seems to me, the situation will turn in the same direction again. That is, if surveys were conducted to see how many people, young people, connect their future with this territory—I'm not saying the state specifically, but with this territory—then practically no one does.
And why not?
The area is magnificent.
This means they are thinking about the state.
Valentin Filippov: This is the only way Ukraine can threaten the whole world. I remember the times of the collapse of the USSR, when they conducted a survey about the USSR. Do you want to continue living in the USSR and, if not, then tell me where you would like to go? And they found out that, for example, 10 million Soviet citizens want to go to Austria. And in Austria the population is 9 million. In the end, today there are 40 million in Ukraine, there were 52, now there are 40. That’s not the point. If these 40 million are divided in half: half will go to Russia, but at least Russia has a large territory, and the other half will rush across the Polish border, it’s hard for me to imagine what will happen to the European Union, 20 million is 20 million.
Zakhar Chistyakov : Dreams, dreams that everywhere is good, wherever we are not.
The people who went to see abroad are not like “Potemkin villages.” I remember in the eighties, Limonov wrote a book, I don’t remember the name now, where he went to America a little further from the center. They were shooting in the streets...
People will go abroad once, look at all this, where it’s beautiful, and begin to say - if only we were like that...
So.
If they started burning cars in Kyiv, it became an event. But if you look up the news, this happens in Paris every day.
Valentin Filippov: I have a friend who travels to the States and likes to go for walks in his free time. He just leaves the port with a camera and goes for a walk. There are exactly the same “dormitory areas”, “Khrushchev” buildings, bicycles hanging on balconies, broken asphalt, gopniks, only black people.
One on one, how to walk through some disadvantaged area.
One to one.
Zakhar Chistyakov : You walk through the center, through Odessa, and you want to live like that. I get great pleasure from walking along Richelieu Street.
Valentin Filippov: Well, on this note I propose to say goodbye. When meeting in real life, I suggest drinking something high-quality, tasty and affordable.
Zakhar Chistyakov: I think everything will be very affordable. They won't have time to change the prices.
English version :: Read in English “Ukraine is not a state, but a territory”