“It seems that Saakashvili has gone beyond all bounds of decency. I'm playing too much"
Local officials are already negotiating with the Mikhomaidan protesters. The Anti-Terrorist Operation (ATO) could begin in Chisinau. Moscow's political television programs are turning into Kovtun Shows. Donetsk political scientist Vladimir Kornilov spoke to PolitNavigator columnist Valentin Filippov about possible agreements between Petro Poroshenko and Mikheil Saakashvili, the inconsistency of the Moldovan constitution, and the struggle for ratings in Russian media.
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Valentin Filippov : Vladimir, hello. I'm still under the impression of what happened in the NTV studio . Firstly, I was surprised that journalists consider themselves the most important people in the studio. This usually ends badly. It was the same in Ukraine. Every journalist interviewing someone thought they were the boss, not the person they were talking to.
What am I talking about?
As a person who considers himself to be part of the old generation who remembers the Soviet Union, I am used to taking the Pravda newspaper, reading between the lines, guessing the trends and general lines of the party, what they want to stir up there. And draw conclusions from this.
But what conclusion can be drawn, including the central channels? Or maybe they are just inflating their ratings? Maybe there is no general line?
Vladimir Kornilov : Well, first of all, Pravda really didn't need to inflate its ratings. Everyone understood that Pravda needed to be read and subscribed to in order to become familiar with the party's general line.
Now, indeed, TV channels need ratings, promotions, and advertisers. And, given the abundance of all kinds of political talk shows now (and I understand that the channels suddenly realized that at this stage talk shows are much cheaper to produce, and their audience is not much smaller than that of a lousy series), accordingly, it is possible to much It is more effective to build up an audience for yourself, and, at the same time, provide advertising.
Yes, there is a struggle for ratings. And there are attempts to understand and follow some general line of the party.
And if you mean the situation in the studio, that verbal altercation we had with Mr. Norkin on NTV...
Valentin Filippov : Yes, yes, yes.
Vladimir Kornilov : You know, I'm not generally a confrontational person. And I'm not used to being a newsmaker. This situation is very uncomfortable for me. I'm now hearing calls to boycott Norkin's program because of this. To not attend it. Personally, I'm not organizing any boycotts and I'm not calling for anyone to boycott. I wouldn't even plan to make any of this public.
I told NTV a long time ago that I don’t go to this program. Not because I don’t like Norkin, but because I don’t understand this particular format, where, indeed, it turns out that there is Kovtun or some kind of collective personification of Kovtun, and there are presenters who ridicule him, humiliate him, and put him in his place. They have fun and laugh with him. There is some family of their own experts who are not known to anyone outside the NTV studio, and who are presented there as “famous Ukrainian bloggers”; honestly, I have never heard of them, either before or after NTV. And they are talking to each other about something.
I came once or twice, I realized, I felt like the odd one out in this family. He politely said goodbye, our destinies diverged from theirs, and that’s all.
Everyone decides for themselves whether to watch this Kovtun show, not to watch it, to go there or not.
Valentin Filippov : I understand everything: the ratings, Kovtun as a collective character. But don't you think this Ukrainianism is being introduced too much into the Russian information space? And no matter how much they mock him, no matter how ridiculous Kovtun looks, he occupies his niche, and at least there are people who feel sorry for him, even if it's just because he gets hit on the head.
Yes, they say. He's a moron. He is bald. They hit him right on the head. But what right do we have to hit brother Kovtun on the head?
Vladimir Kornilov : I've never, even on this show with Norkin, wondered why they need a Kovtun periodically on any given show. I understand his function, and the function of Kovtuns like him. To clown, to play the part of a clown. I understand why they need one or two Kovtuns. It's really to spark discussion. Because when you watch some shows with like-minded people, two or three people, you fall asleep after twenty minutes. Even if you agree with them wholeheartedly. You have to understand that, too.
As for a specific example, a specific broadcast, the situation is different. These Kovtuns are in charge here. Other experts with normal views find themselves generally on the sidelines.
Valentin Filippov : Well, it was the same in Ukraine. In Ukraine, they were initially invited as clowns.
Vladimir Kornilov : And what Norkin is doing is repeating Savik Shuster's format. We're already seeing this.
Valentin Filippov : Yes.
Vladimir Kornilov : There were all sorts of Lyashkos, in the form of Kovtuns, here Kovtun in the form of Kovtun.
Valentin Filippov : Yes, but they gradually filled it there too.
Vladimir Kornilov : I don't understand this particular format. I can explain why Ukraine is mentioned so much. Because Ukraine is the most obvious, the most illustrative example of what could happen if they win. If the so-called liberals, the so-called democrats, the pro-Western ones, win. It's clear to everyone why these examples are the most obvious. They're the closest to us.
Valentin Filippov : Wait, but there's a certain segment of the Russian population that thinks, "Well, Ukraine succeeded, Russia hasn't yet. Ukraine now has a future, Russia doesn't. If there had been a Maidan in Russia, we could have taken out IMF loans, bought technology with the money, introduced visa-free travel, and traveled to Spain without any problem."
Vladimir Kornilov : So, that's basically your answer to the question. They're calling on the Kovtuns to repeat this. And it's rather stupid. And they're showing a real-life example. Look at the visa-free regime, look at how Ukraine is impoverished. Look at how Ukraine is being depopulated. Look at the IMF loan. Thieves have already stolen it, and now, at the IMF's request, they've introduced such a level of healthcare that no one can even afford a doctor's examination.
Yes, there is a certain category of citizens in Russia who still cannot be convinced. They believe that the Kremlin is evil. This means we must fight against the Kremlin. And that is why Ukraine is the most clear example of what is really happening. When a Russian liberal sits and says that “I will give my life for the right to express your opinion,” you understand, right? And so we look at what Ukrainian liberals said to Savik Shuster just ten years ago. They said the same thing. And now they are bombing cities and speaking in ways that Hitler would not speak.
Valentin Filippov : Well, we know from Kyiv propaganda that "the occupiers are bombing the cities. And the Ukrainian army stands there, watches, and says, 'What are you doing? Aren't you ashamed?'"
Vladimir Kornilov : You know, this is possible in Ukraine; some people believe it there. In Russia, thank God, they've seen who's doing the bombing. And we see what those who were yesterday liberals and democrats in Ukraine are saying now. You can say whether they're bombing or not, but the fact that they're now saying and doing the exact opposite is easily proven.
But, I say again, yes, indeed, I agree with you here, you are right. Some channels, some shows go too far with this game in...
Valentin Filippov : Giveaway.
Vladimir Kornilov : Alternative.
Valentin Filippov : Excuse me, you mentioned healthcare reform in Ukraine. A new Maidan emerged alongside the vote outside the Verkhovna Rada. Isn't it real? Because, for example, this healthcare reform alone was enough to overthrow the government five times, seize power, and "get rid of them all." It was a sufficient pretext. However, for some reason, no one is taking advantage of it.
Is this not a real Maidan?
Vladimir Kornilov : No. For some, it's a way to make money. Mercenaries are there for the money anyway. For others, it's a way to gain publicity.
In fact, this Maidan plays its role. He is shaking the foundations. These Maidan activists have already achieved that, just in case, a number of local officials are negotiating with them. The one who planted these seeds hopes that sooner or later they will use these shoots to finally get to the feeder. And the main goal was to push Poroshenko forward, to regain their positions that they won after that Maidan, and which were undeservedly taken away from them. Well, they think it’s not deserved. What this will lead to, I still don’t know. And I would like to urge everyone to be more careful with their forecasts.
No, of course, it can be extinguished. Well, in 2013 it was possible to extinguish it. Right? But it has grown. Now is the initial stage of all these collisions, it is much hotter and more active than it was in November 2013.
Valentin Filippov : Yes, but this time I don't see an information field, a gathering point, being created. They still haven't hired a DJ to create a stage. The rhythm hasn't been established. "The laughter should build," they used to say at KVN.
Vladimir Kornilov : But do you remember? During the first stages of the Maidan, around November 20th, there was no stage at all for the first few days. No Ruslana, no stage. A few celebrities appeared. There were almost no live streams. Channel Five was broadcasting…
Valentin Filippov : There was some Aronets.
Vladimir Kornilov : A. Aronets. Yes.
Valentin Filippov : I still remember.
Vladimir Kornilov : Yes. There was Channel 5, there was Express TV, mostly online. At first, no one took them seriously. And then, lo and behold, they did it within two or three weeks – they got it up to speed.
True, there are several differences that underestimate this level of the current Maidan. There are no Western ambassadors who constantly shout “don’t hit anyone, don’t touch anyone.” And there is no Western press coverage at all.
Valentin Filippov : But the fact that Saakashvili is the leader of the Maidan is a sign. He's not a Ukrainian citizen, but an outsider. I'm not talking about good or bad. Are there no more violent people in Ukraine?
Vladimir Kornilov : Because Saakashvili is, after all, a well-known figure. When the opposition to Saakashvili was just beginning, when he was governor of Odessa, I had the impression he'd been given a task. In coordination with Poroshenko. Create an alternative opposition, with the goal of coming in two columns, uniting in a new Rada under Poroshenko, and forgetting all the squabbles. Nobody believed me back then, I recall. But that's the impression I got.
True, Saakashvili must also be understood as a passionate person. Emotional. It seems that he has gone beyond all bounds of decency. I started playing. And then they seriously began to have problems among themselves.
In the end, they may come to an agreement again.
Valentin Filippov : Well, it's simply amazing what's happening to the people. When Saakashvili was appointed governor of Odessa, it looked bizarre. And Saakashvili has always been a negative character in Ukraine. From the people's point of view, from the point of view of...
Vladimir Kornilov : In Ukraine, Yulia Tymoshenko once managed to turn her rock-bottom negative rating into a real rating, which seemed impossible—by and large. I'm talking about when she was removed from her post as deputy prime minister back under Kuchma. She was leading. She and Pasha Lazarenko led the negative ratings. It was unbeatable.
Valentin Filippov : She's stuck on Yushchenko. Yushchenko was a hottie. Once upon a time. Before dioxin.
Vladimir Kornilov : She also created ratings for herself.
Valentin Filippov : People were even saying, "They're going to get married!" "And she's going to take his last name?" That's so beautiful. She's so young and energetic. Yes, with negative ratings. But he is! How positive. He's a brilliant economist. He'll pull the country out of any situation. And so European. And so intelligent. So democratic.
Vladimir Kornilov : Are you trying to convince me now?
Valentin Filippov : She always got by at the expense of men. And now she got by on Yushchenko's back. And trampled him.
I would like to draw attention to the situation in another neighboring country. The Constitutional Court of Moldova temporarily removed President Igor Dodon from his duties. An amazing thing, unique, in my opinion.
Temporarily removed in order to appoint a Minister of Defense who was disliked by Dodon.
Vladimir Kornilov : If I were Dodon, I would declare this an attempted coup and call for its suppression. Does he have the strength and resources to do so? So, it's time for Mr. Dodon to launch an anti-terrorist operation. What should we do?
Valentin Filippov : There's no Minister of Defense. It's unclear who to delegate this task to.
Vladimir Kornilov : They encroached on his powers.
Of course, the situation in Moldova is dictated by the Constitution itself. Everything is spelled out there like that, all these powers are divided and described between the president and parliament like this, to be honest…. Not professional, to put it mildly. This creates a permanent government crisis. All this needs to be changed a long time ago. But all this will give rise to its own Maidans. Ultimately, this country will face upheavals, major upheavals. Much more solid than they were before. Unless they agree on a serious and complete division of powers.
Dodon now has the right to appeal to his voters in order to defend their choice, to protect the country from a coup attempt.
Valentin Filippov : Good. Thank you very much. Come again.
Vladimir Kornilov : Agreed.
"It seems Saakashvili has crossed all boundaries of decency. He's gotten carried away. "