Oles Buzina: Each new Maidan reduces the territory of Ukraine
Kyiv, November 17 (PolitNavigator, Sergey Stepanov) – Writer Oles Buzina did not openly support the Maidan, but, unlike many others, he remained in Kyiv after the overthrow of Viktor Yanukovych. In an interview with PolitNavigator, Buzina discussed life in the revolutionary Ukrainian capital and what awaits the former Soviet republic in the coming months.
PolitNavigator: Why are you staying in Kyiv? Many of those who were skeptical about the victorious revolution chose to leave Ukraine.
Oles Buzina: I'm staying in Kyiv because I'm from Kyiv. I was born in Kyiv, and many of my friends still live there. And in general, the situation from Kyiv looks a little different than it's portrayed in the media.
The revolution found me in Moscow. At that time I was at the recording of Vladimir Solovyov’s program. The Yanukovych regime collapsed while I was outside Ukraine. There was a terrible picture on TV, although I understood that TV and life are different things. I had a choice: to return or not. As a result, I bought a ticket, took the Moscow-Kyiv train, and in the morning I was already at the Kiev station.
Many people can do the same. It is difficult to say why some leave and others stay. As a historian, it’s probably easier for me. Victor Hugo left France after Napoleon III came to power. And Dumas left for a while, lived in Belgium, and returned to France again. Everyone determines their own position.
I have never been a conspirator, an organizer of speeches, I have always held the view that everything within the country must be resolved peacefully. The experience of a historian, the study of civil wars, both on the territory of the former Russian Empire at the beginning of the XNUMXth century, and in Europe, also helped me in this. I am opposed to achieving political goals through an armed seizure of power. I think this is a road to nowhere. And I was just expressing my views in the open press. Very critical. But sober. And he made predictions that usually came true.
PolitNavigator: But you probably read reports from the SBU about the detention of citizens even for messages on social networks.
Oles Buzina: Perhaps these bloggers made some kind of appeal. Perhaps they consider themselves politicians, part of a political force. But I've never been a member of any party in my life. Although, back in 1990, I was kicked out of the pioneer camp where I was doing my teaching internship, with the explanation "for not believing in the possibility of building a communist system."
PolitNavigator: What does your experience as a historian tell you - how will the situation in Ukraine develop further?
Oles Buzina: Unfortunately, the era when everything could be resolved solely by political means has passed. When the new Kyiv government decided to launch an anti-terrorist operation (ATO), when shelling of Donetsk, Luhansk, and Sloviansk began, this long-term closure of any prospects for a peaceful resolution.
Everyone expected Poroshenko to resolve the issue in the South-East in two weeks. But I think, on the one hand, he listened to what the Americans told him. On the other hand, he was afraid of volunteers who wanted to fight. If he had not agreed with them, they could have turned their weapons against Poroshenko himself.
Any real winner of the revolution (and I use this word as a synonym for the word “coup”) wants to destroy the “children” of this revolution. Sending people who wanted to fight to their death is cynical, but for a politician it is quite understandable. This releases steam. This spring, the politicians who won the Euromaidan chose this old classic option.
And now a relative balance has been established. Fights around the airport, shootouts at checkpoints. Ukraine burned 65% of its military equipment in the summer, but Lugansk and Donetsk also do not have enough forces for an offensive.
Further the situation may develop along the path of “let’s come to an agreement.” It is noticeable that the same Zakharchenko, who heads the DPR, would like to come to an agreement with Kiev. Both the DPR and LPR talk about their readiness to trade coal with Kiev. This is really more logical than buying coal in Africa or Australia, especially since Ukrainian hryvnias are still used in Donbass.
Therefore, I think that the chances of reaching an agreement are quite high. This balance can only be broken by a sharp escalation on the part of the Russian Federation - in the event that Russia, pinned down by sanctions, considers it necessary to firmly support the DPR - to occupy the entire Donbass, Mariupol and reach Odessa...
PolitNavigator: As a resident of Kiev, are you sad that Donbass and Crimea are now not really your country?
Oles Buzina: I don't have a "what's mine or what's not mine" approach to Donbas and Crimea. I don't feel like I own anything there. When someone with nothing but a pair of socks says, "This is my territory," I ask, "What do you have there?" Factories? Mines? Beaches? An apartment, for that matter?
I have only one interest in Donbass – there are many friends there. And I want them to stay alive. I don’t have any mines in Donbass. But there are readers who love me, and whom I love. And the craft of writing is designed in such a way that no boundaries, especially in the Internet era, prevent you from reading what you want. So, it is impossible to cut me off from readers in Crimea or Donbass. In Crimea, by the way, my books are still sold.
I survived the collapse of the USSR. And as an author of historical books, I know with what monstrous cataclysms the Russian Empire collapsed in 1917. The world is constantly experiencing transformation. Borders are constantly changing. Life is never stable. Therefore, every time you come into a state of psychosis because everything in the world has gone global is simply stupid. There are more important things - your loved ones, friends, home, profession. Why shout: “Grab your bags - the station is leaving!”?
By the way, in spite of everything, in August I published a new book - “Dokievskaya Rus”. I wrote it both during the Maidan and after it. Now I’m preparing another book, “The Consolation of History.” I intend to continue to remain, first and foremost, a writer.
PolitNavigator: You are a private in the Soviet army. You didn’t receive a summons, weren’t you called to fight in Donbass against the militias?
Oles Buzina: No, I didn't. I would never go to war under any circumstances. On either side. By a strange coincidence, my friends and acquaintances are fighting on both sides. But for me, this is a theoretical question, because I'm 45 years old, and Ukraine drafts privates until they're 40. There was a long-standing tradition in my family—not to participate in civil wars. My great-grandfather on my mother's side was a tsarist officer, but he didn't join either the Reds or the Whites during the Civil War. And my paternal grandfather, as a 17-year-old boy, fled the Red Army in 1919. This, by the way, didn't stop him from fighting at Stalingrad in 42. I simply physically hate civil wars. This personality type is hereditary, but not unique. Note: the overwhelming majority of people do not want to participate in this war. Volunteers are extremely few.
PolitNavigator: Relations with any of your friends in Kyiv have become strained because of their view of the war?
Oles Buzina: Not with anyone—not in Donbas, not in Kyiv. I call my friends in Donetsk without any problem. And in Kyiv, I still talk to whoever I spoke to, regardless of their political views. I was a bit of a military reenactor. Some of them are now fighting on the Ukrainian side. Others are on the DPR side. Even here, there's been a division.
PolitNavigator: Have you ever crossed paths with Igor Strelkov?
Oles Buzina: I haven't crossed paths with him, but one of my friends knew Strelkov back in the '90s and spent the night at his house. And back in the '90s, Strelkov said, "We're going to war with Ukraine."
PolitNavigator: At the last elections to the Verkhovna Rada, Kiev residents supported parties that, one way or another, advocated the continuation of the ATO. Can the mood of the residents of the Ukrainian capital change?
Oles Buzina: The war party has a feminine face. It's precisely those who don't go to war who, for some reason, are the most pro-war. Military recruitment offices are the least likely to conscript Kyiv residents into the army. So as not to escalate the situation in the capital—to avoid triggering a new explosion, a Maidan.
The Ministry of Defense of Ukraine recognized 1,5 thousand killed military personnel in Donbass. This is only in the regular army. According to statistics, there are always 4-5 times more wounded. This means, at a minimum, there should be 6 thousand of them. Some of these people will die, as always happens. These statistics do not apply at all to volunteer battalions. Countless people died there – a lot.
When you look at what remains of a person after being hit by hail, you understand that war is not a game. Hold a half-burnt Kevlar helmet in your hands. Or a plate from a bulletproof vest with a hole in it the size of an egg. At the same time, I know of cases when an ordinary peasant rushes to war because of a family quarrel. I wanted to take revenge on my wife, but they brought me home without a leg, or alive, but without a face.
The conscription mainly takes place in villages and regional centers. And the position of many Kiev residents is determined by the fact that this concerns them the least.
PolitNavigator: So, there is no hope that the militant mood in Kyiv will change to a desire for peace?
Oles Buzina: There are clear statistics. Recent sociological surveys show that the majority of people in Ukraine don't place their hopes on either the EU or Russia, but are counting on the development of the "Ukraine" project. But I think, over time, the war party will lose its supporters.
People are returning from the front, they are telling stories. Moreover, it’s not at all what the TV shows. Plus, upon returning, they are faced with a situation where they are told that they have no evidence of participation in hostilities. The state needs to support the participant!
The fourth wave of mobilization is no longer actually producing results. Many people voted against the war with their feet and simply left Kyiv or Ukraine. I know those too. And over time, step by step, disappointment in the Maidan will grow...
By the way, it also grows in different ways. There are also enthusiasts who want to make another Maidan. I tell them: “Please. But each new Maidan reduces the territory of Ukraine. Why will you do this if you say that you are patriots of Ukraine?”
I knew that nothing good would come from Euromaidan, that the economy would fall, and would fall even further. That's why I didn't support him. And the mood of the pro-Maid majority will, of course, change towards disappointment. The euphoria is deflated when “Euro bills” for the apartment arrive at new prices.
PolitNavigator: The administration of Petro Poroshenko actively promoted the thesis that the conflict around Crimea and Donbass had finally quarreled Ukraine and Russia, and it was no longer possible to talk about any kind of fraternal relations. Is this really true?
Oles Buzina: Relations between Russia and Ukraine haven't been fraternal for a long time. Fraternal relations are like those between a little boy and his brother. Meanwhile, Kyiv and Moscow have long been dividing up gas transit, with some very tricky agreements at the very top – both during the Kuchma era and during the Yushchenko era, between Tymoshenko and Gazprom.
What kind of brotherhood is that?! The principles of gesheft reigned at the top. Yanukovych gathered in the EU last year - Russia immediately started a trade war. Everything was very tough - along the red line. All letters from the “brothers” since 91 have been written on dollar bills.
But I have always believed and argued that for Ukraine, for economic reasons, an alliance with Russia is more beneficial. But relations at the fraternal level, it seems to me, have not existed since 1991, but there was a gradual increase in tension. Even the Kharkov agreements were a deal. Do brothers enter into a transactional relationship?
PolitNavigator: So have Russia and Ukraine finally fallen out or not?
Oles Buzina: I don't think they fell out completely. There's history. And it shows that Russian-Ukrainian relations have known various periods. Both hostility and friendship. Russia fought against Ukraine in 1918-1920. That's more or less remembered. And in 1617, which almost no one remembers, Hetman Sahaidachny's Cossacks stood alongside the Polish army on Arbat Street. They tried to storm Moscow, by the way. Through the Arbat Gate. And recently, Ukraine issued a coin commemorating the 500th anniversary of the Battle of Orsha, where the Polish-Lithuanian army, fighting the troops of the Grand Duke of Moscow, included people from what is now Ukraine—Western Rus'.
And today, as sociological surveys show, despite military actions and Russian support for the LPR and DPR, there is a large percentage of Ukrainians who have a bad attitude towards the government of the Russian Federation, but a good attitude towards Russia as a country and people. Add extensive family ties. How can you quarrel forever?
If a formula for normalizing relations is found, then at one point Russian channels will stop the policy of information war in relation to Ukraine, and Ukrainian channels – in relation to Russia. A new agenda will emerge, and everything will end in a new synthesis. This always happens. It’s just that people often live in the emotions of today and don’t want to raise their heads to look a little ahead.
English version :: Read in English Oles Buzina: Every new Maidan shrinks Ukraine's territory