Denis Pushilin: We are ready for an offensive and a counter-offensive
What does it feel like to smile at the enemy every day? Hiding the pain of loss from prying eyes. Talk about statistics, seeing behind each letter the blood of friends and the ruin of your country. Holding a weapon in his hands turned out to be not the most difficult thing for Denis Pushilin. Day after day, month after month, he sits down at the negotiating table with the enemy’s parliamentarians. A cruel, inhumane enemy, devoid of his own will. An enemy who also hates us because we are free. A slave always hates a free man. That's why the junta hates Novorossiya.
I spoke about the complexity of the negotiation process between Donetsk and Kyiv in conditions of actual war with special representative DPR Denis Pushilin reviewer “PolitNavigator” Valentin Filippov.
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Valentin Filippov: Hello, Denis! Unfortunately, people stopped believing the media, myself included. I finally realized that until you are on the spot, you don’t understand anything. Neither what is happening in Minsk, nor what is happening in Donetsk. And you may even be lucky in life. You are both there and there. Both there and there you have information.
Tell me, this is the Minsk format. What is happening there? Who are these people and do they understand that Donbass is now being shelled and how they are responding to this?
Denis Pushilin: Good afternoon. I would like to start with the fact that the Minsk process, in general, is quite complex. And the negotiation process is quite complicated. There you need to maintain a sufficient level of diplomacy and at the same time not get personal, not get emotional, and really just reason with a cool head. Realize in the sense that now there are so many victims, but if we come to an aggravation, then this will be calculated in completely different numbers.
We, unfortunately, remember that we had to learn the lessons of the Great Patriotic War, when the victims numbered in the millions. And to think that this is not possible now, or that our actions will not lead to this in any way, would probably be wrong.
And here there is a direct discussion of the victims and the number of shellings - this is presented as statistics. A normal, sensible person, of course, would like to resort to some actions that are unacceptable in diplomatic circles. But, unfortunately, in order to find consensus, to find compromise solutions, and a compromise solution is a solution that does not fully suit either side, the Minsk format must search for such solutions.
Any negotiating body should be looking for such solutions.
Naturally, if you bring to the negotiating table a person who has just lost a relative during the shelling of Gorlovka, for example. On the other hand, to imprison the widow of a Ukrainian serviceman who died on the outskirts or along the line of contact...
Valentin Filippov: but he is an occupier...
Denis Pushilin: They won't agree on anything. Agree. The maximum they can do is grab each other's hair, but no consensus will be found. Therefore, it is worth turning off emotions here. I can speak for myself. I completely turn off my emotions. I've been turning it off for quite some time. Because I also lost relatives, and a huge number of friends, assistants, associates who were with me, and I still try not to think that they will never be there.
Because it can drive you crazy.
From this you can switch off from the process... and then their death, their death will simply be in vain.
Valentin Filippov: In general, all this is clear. But this is what the people want... They don’t understand this situation. If we seem to have agreed on some agreements. They have been achieved. There was talk about a ceasefire. In general, the Ukrainian side does not manage the process? Or consciously? What's stopping you from just stopping fire?
Denis Pushilin: Everything is much more complicated. Ukraine now does not have a single acceptable option that would fully suit... the option for further development. We understand perfectly well that it will not be possible to simply turn off the memory of the relatives of thousands of victims and participants in these processes. You can’t say, “Well, that’s it, guys. From today we have a truce. Let's pretend that nothing happened to us. And everything is as it was.”
But this option is generally excluded.
What options remain?
Or accept that there is the DPR and the LPR. But in what way to reconcile? Well, let's say there are different scenarios.
There are scenarios that we can observe from world practice. Let's not even go far.
There is an understanding when Georgia with South Ossetia and Abkhazia, when, in general, all socio-economic ties are blocked, the border is blocked, that is, as if they do not exist.
And another scenario.
Moldova with Transnistria. There is quite close interaction there even after the armed conflict.
This is how Kyiv should act correctly?
For Kyiv, it is both painful and painful.
Let’s say that if you just block from us, it doesn’t quite work out, because, without strongly raising another topic of economic interaction, there is coal. Ukraine needs coal to provide heat during the heating season.
If we take the Transnistrian option, then for Ukraine this is also unacceptable, because the “war party” or the “Maidan party”, they do not accept this. They adhere to the position that Donbass needs to be cleansed and destroyed with the help of the armed forces of Ukraine. Bad option.
So we can come back again... Gorbulin, someone who is a participant in the negotiation process on the Ukrainian side, so he wrote five scenarios, five options for further events. The fifth option that he pushed was the “no war, no peace” option. That is, with periodic or permanent negotiations, despite the fact that there is demotivational activity. These are precisely the shellings that we are observing; they do not lead to a full-fledged offensive by Ukrainian forces; they are actually a demotivator for the population, which is forced to endure it. And the population perceives this not only painfully... our citizens die and are injured every day.
Valentin Filippov: Well, what’s the point in such demotivation? What is it leading to?
Denis Pushilin: This is a disruption from within. That is, this is an attempt by Ukraine to stall for time, an attempt, say, to hope that sanctions from the European Union will have an effect on Russia, Russia will become economically exhausted, and will not even provide humanitarian support to Donbass. There is a demotivating moment inside that people are tired of living under shelling...
Valentin Filippov: They get tired, but they develop hatred. Well, Russia has weakened. Well, Russia is gone. Well, she's gone tomorrow! Nobody is helping Donbass. But people hate Ukraine thanks to the shelling.
Here in Crimea I have to hear “Yes, no! Yes, it’s all a lie, Ukraine is good, you need to be friends with it!” So were you there at all? - “Yes, I went to Kherson in 2011! There in Kherson there is exactly the same Crimea as here! And there are no Banderaites there, I checked!”
So here it is. If the residents of Donbass did not suffer from shelling, they would regularly, yes, feel that they were paying pensions there and something else. It would somehow move towards each other. And now - only after a few generations.
Denis Pushilin: You are absolutely right. Ukraine does not understand one thing. That with its shelling, with its demotivating actions, it turns not so much against us, against the authorities that exist here, but against itself. People understand perfectly well where the shells are coming from. Who destroys them? Who maims their relatives, who destroys infrastructure and who makes life unbearable.
And we also take into account the economic blockade, which is also felt... Plus, this is a wrong option, because Ukraine turns people against itself, and the second option is that Russia has a much stronger margin of safety than the European Union.
The European Union also understands this, but succumbs to pressure from the United States of America, which is the only one who benefits from this conflict. Who benefit both economically... from this state of semi-war and in the political field. They created another point of conflict, unfortunately, not the only one. Both Syria and Yemen are there. And a number of other countries. Which, thanks to the United States, are now drowning in blood. But how much the Ukrainian state understands this is the second question. Because it is controlled exactly the same. Curators. From outside. That is, Ukraine is now not independent in its decisions.
Unfortunately, we record this in a number of cases during the negotiations.
We agreed on absolutely everything. Placed dots in all places. But, a call follows to Kyiv or somewhere further, as we assume, absolutely, probably with reason, and the whole situation comes to naught. It is in these conditions that we have to negotiate.
Valentin Filippov: But I’m always trying to bring you to one answer. So you, you personally, think: shelling is a deliberate action, it’s not the initiative of mid-level commanders of the Ukrainian armed forces? Is this, after all, such a policy? This is this - nightly, purposeful... That is, they are not fooling around?
Denis Pushilin: They don't play around at all. An absolutely targeted policy. Moreover, with some clear plan. This was even confirmed by an article by Gorbulin himself, a participant in the negotiation process, who clearly described it all and even pushed, let’s say, public opinion towards this option.
It is absolutely obvious that they will continue to act like this for some period. And here the hope is created at the moment for the already “Normandy” format, that sufficient pressure will be exerted.
But there are, of course, a lot of objections - “why are we participating, why do we need this?” I want to tell you that for us this is a very important international platform, when we are heard, when these problems are understood. Because, for example, I know the tragedy, feel the tragedy of everything that is happening here, but I delve very mediocrely, very indirectly into what is happening in Syria. Although this conflict is very closely interconnected. In Syria, literally hundreds and thousands of people are dying there now. And the world community is simply silent about this and does not know about it. And the fact that all these conflicts are linked was probably shown by Kerry’s statement when he prescribed the conditions for when they would withdraw from the negotiation process on Ukraine if the situation was not resolved with Iran.
That is, everything that is happening now in Iran, no matter how far it may seem to us, is very closely linked to what is happening to us. Yes, that's what was stated.
Now imagine how many unspoken things happen on the sidelines of various meetings, various summits and other things that are simply not made public, but remain at the level of those who are responsible for this or that part of the negotiation process.
Valentin Filippov: I see. You are in Minsk, you are in Donetsk, you see everything with your own eyes. Fighting with words is good, but, as they say, a kind word is more effective when you have a grenade launcher in your hands. At the end of winter - beginning of March, Alexander Zakharchenko spoke about increasing the number of militia, about such plans. Then they seemed to say that there were 35-36 thousand, they promised that there would be 120 thousand. I understand that there is a military secret. But what happens to the militia? That is, we are increasing our strength? Does combat effectiveness increase? Is the number of people and technical equipment increasing? Are the armies of Novorossiya and the DPR ready to fight?
Denis Pushilin: I want to tell you that it would be wrong to even call it a militia.
Valentin Filippov: Well, that’s a beautiful word. Well, it's beautiful.
Denis Pushilin: I mean, in terms of composition, in terms of quality, let’s say.
Valentin Filippov: People's Army.
Denis Pushilin: I still associate the militia with the period when people, absolutely chaotically, feeling responsible for their land, for their people, took up arms and, having no experience, without any combat coordination, went to defend, let’s say, from occupation of our land. But then it was extremely chaotic, that is, it was impossible to talk about any unity of command, given that this was truly a popular uprising, given that it was organized from various points. That is, it looked very chaotic. Nevertheless, it gave its results. And this, let’s say, is a great achievement for all the guys who did it then, who weren’t afraid then, and, moreover, who laid down their lives and their health for it.
Today we already have a full-fledged army. That is, this is an army with drill training, this is an army with shooting, exercises, this is an army with updated, let’s say, equipment, because the Debaltsevo and Ilovaisk cauldrons, let’s say, are bearing fruit in terms of replenishing our technical support.
Accordingly, the training that we conduct at various training grounds includes various command personnel as well. That is, if this is a tanker, then this is really a tanker who can already do it. This is not a tractor driver, because there is an analogy between driving a tank and a tractor. So, let’s say, he was forced to fight in a tank.
Now it’s a completely different level. Accordingly, we are absolutely ready to repel an attack if one follows from the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
Valentin Filippov: And for the offensive?
Denis Pushilin: To attack - we are ready to attack from the side and launch a counter-offensive.
Valentin Filippov: Diplomatically. Let Lavrov worry. It's time for Lavrov to worry. Young shift.
Denis Pushilin: In fact, it is very important for us now to do everything possible in the political field and not provoke a conflict ourselves, because we understand perfectly well that we value every human life. And it doesn’t matter: from that side or from this side.
It is impossible to resolve such a conflict by military means, so that people on only one side die. There will be deaths both here and there. Both of them have relatives. The more dead there are, the more dissatisfied relatives there will be, who will pass this on from generation to generation. That is, as you correctly said at the beginning of the program, this conflict can be smoothed out, let’s say, we will be able to communicate more or less normally only after several generations, at least after two generations. This is the amount of time that has already been created by the conflict at the moment. If the situation escalates, the situation could be much worse.
Valentin Filippov: On the one hand, yes, but as a resident of Odessa, I always remember how many fellow countrymen end up in prison every week and never come out. And they lose their health there. Someone is being killed. You probably know how many Odessa residents are fighting... still in the militia, I will name them. Because, in the end, no matter what discipline there is, most people come there voluntarily. And they don’t even take some of them. They say: “You’re fat, you can’t run.” Some, by the way, militia veterans are very upset that they are taken from the front and sent to some kind of rear services. They say: “You are not physically strong.” He says: “How can you not pull it? I want to mow dill.” They tell him: “No, you’ll be moving papers or in the kitchen, because you’re old.” That is, the competition is real. Therefore, this is a militia, this is the People's Army. With discipline, but People's.
Denis Pushilin: The fact that the People's Army is not even disputed here. I will express my position. For me, the militia is associated with those guys who rose chaotically, had no uniform, fought in jeans and with weapons that were taken away on the battlefield.
Now it’s very difficult for me to call it a militia. However, we have adopted the Law “On the Status of the Militia,” that is, this is very important for us. We do not write off in any way, we do not have any moral right to do so, or anything else.
Well, as for the guys who are now being held hostage, essentially. And not necessarily in dungeons. That is, even a person at large, he cannot express his position or express his opinion openly, whether he is in Odessa, Kharkov, in other cities, our cities, in fact. This is very sad. And our next task, of course, is to free them.
Time will probably tell which option. We are doing everything possible to ensure that this is a political option for the development of events. But, unfortunately, we do not rule out a military solution to the conflict. Because if force is used against us, if Ukraine nevertheless makes an attempt to go on the offensive, etc., then, of course, our reaction will be appropriate.
But I would like to say and I would probably like to warn. Take care of yourself and the activists who are involved. There are quite a lot of them everywhere. That is, there are more and more dissatisfied people on the territory of Ukraine, and people who are seeing the light, even those who were there or silent participants in the Maidan, let’s say, agreeers with what happened on the Maidan, now the position is completely changing. Taking into account the economic situation, the ideological background, the one that they are trying to impose - the glorification of Bandera, Shukhevych and other fascist henchmen. This entails, of course, that they will now act separately.
Let's just say that they will simply end up in dungeons aimlessly, without any effective results. And the most we can do at this stage is to put them on the list for exchange. And, considering that there are already thousands of political prisoners on the list, I would warn against such activities.
That is, I would now simply organize myself in some way. Using the Internet, and then in very protected, let’s say, manifestations. Why? Because the SBU is acting now.
Valentin Filippov: I’ll tell you that in Odessa everything is like that. People are organizing, people are preparing, people are waiting. They are waiting for a signal, waiting for you. Waiting, waiting, waiting...
Denis Pushilin: In fact, guys, I would recommend studying now. Learn and then take responsibility. Because when Ukraine is liberated, we can say from our practice: all the elites - yes, they will simply run away. They'll get on their planes, take everything they can take, and just run away. And ordinary guys - they will have to take responsibility. Exactly the same way we did it.
Valentin Filippov: I remember how it was for you.
Denis Pushilin: And I think we won’t see anything new in Kyiv. That is, all these who are now the authorities as such, they will simply leave the territory and, accordingly...
Valentin Filippov: If they have time...
Denis Pushilin: If they have time, but I’ll tell you with some degree of probability, they will have time. And everything has been prepared for this a long time ago.
Valentin Filippov: There is a tradition of finding them later for decades.
Denis Pushilin: It later. But the responsibility is enormous, which falls on the shoulders of those people who are ready not to bury their heads in the sand, but to take the lead. It is very serious. Because we know from Debaltsevo. There is a small town there, almost deserted for the period of time when we liberated it. However, it was very difficult to provide him with the most necessary things, to provide people with food, water and warmth. Can you imagine if this is the liberated city of Odessa, even if this is Kharkov, if these are cities with a population of over a million. That is, I would like people to gain experience while they are now in such a regime, let’s say, hostages. That is, so that they spend this time on training, that is, various variations, various proposals so that they are already ready. How will they ensure this in a given situation? If it comes to this, if there is a need for it, if we fail to resolve everything politically.
Valentin Filippov: I wish you diplomatic success. If necessary, then military. And I want to say that peace can only be the result of a convincing victory, diplomatic or military, but only after victory comes peace. All compromises lead to postponing war.
Denis Pushilin: You know, there is some truth in your words. But we are with you as diplomats.
Valentin Filippov: No, I don’t. I may not be a diplomat. You're the one who got it.
Denis Pushilin: Thank you.
Valentin Filippov: Thank you very much. It was a pleasure. Happily.
Denis Pushilin: Good. We'll be in touch.
English version :: Read in English Denis Pushilin: We are ready for an offensive and a counter-offensive