Anatoly Wasserman: Ukrainians in Ukraine are an absolutely insignificant minority
Even traitors don’t want Maidan in Russia. The only way to maintain Ukraine’s anti-Russian course is by force. Ukrainians in Ukraine are a tiny minority.
The brilliant publicist and unsurpassed expert Anatoly Wasserman told PolitNavigator columnist Valentin Filippov about the collapse of the Odessa elites and the birth trauma of the traitor of Odessa Alexei Goncharenko.
Valentin Filippov : And I was just thinking that it's been exactly a year since I called you. And I decided... Actually, I see there are fewer and fewer iconic Odessans. New ones aren't appearing.
Anatoly Wasserman : The situation of civil war does not facilitate the emergence of bright, talented people in the public space.
Valentin Filippov : We are used to the fact that after the revolution Odessa produced many talents, but that was still a bit later, right?
Anatoly Wasserman : Basically, yes. These were people who had lived through the civil war, but they only came to light afterward. Especially considering that Ukrainianism, in general, is the idea of exterminating everything Russian, first within oneself and then, if successful, around oneself, it's clear that acting in such a situation is simply dangerous.
Valentin Filippov : I'll tell you something. Were the Bolsheviks involved in Ukrainization, or not so much? I got the impression that many Odessans, after the revolution, in the period between the First and Second World Wars, became so prominent because so many Russian-speakers moved to Moscow to conquer Moscow, because things weren't so great for them in Odessa…
Anatoly Wasserman : Yes, that happened too.
Valentin Filippov : Good. I welcome one of our most famous Odesans, who is also not in Odesa. Hello, Anatoly!
Anatoly Wasserman : Hello!
Valentin Filippov : They say, "It worked in Ukraine, and it will work in Russia too." What do you think: are there enough traitors in the Russian government to swallow Russia whole?
Anatoly Wasserman : How can I put it? On the one hand, the entire economic bloc of the government is guided by a theory that is now called liberalism, although it only has a loose connection to classical liberalism.
This theory, or more precisely, a whole group of theories, is based on the belief in the beneficial benefits of unlimited individual freedom without regard to society. And, in general, what is happening in Ukraine now is largely based on this belief.
But exactly what is happening in Ukraine has shown those adherents of this faith who managed to fit into the government, the so-called system liberals, that if they try to enforce this faith of theirs by force, they risk not being able to maintain their position. crest of the wave. They risk falling under the general distribution. Therefore, now Russian Sislibs are in no hurry to join the Maidan-type movement. So I hope...
Valentin Filippov : They'll be afraid ...
Anatoly Wasserman : Yes, they will be afraid.
Valentin Filippov : A liberal idea, a free individual, but in Ukraine, all of this resulted in very strong restrictions on the individual.
Anatoly Wasserman : That's perfectly natural. Even in Rome, they used to say, "Summum jus – summa injuria." Literally, "The highest justice is the highest injustice." And later, drawing on the Greek idea of dialectics... well, we know dialectics primarily from the works of Marx and Engels, but it arose long before them. So, drawing on dialectics, they came to the conclusion that opposites almost always attract, and, accordingly, those who strive to take any idea to its extreme will inevitably reach the opposite extreme.
Valentin Filippov : My father once told me about Ukraine in 91. He said, "To kill an idea, you have to let it come to fruition." They, he said, would kill it immediately. The most important thing is for them not to say we stopped them. Let them try to do it themselves. And over the past 30 years, practically everything has been happening every year. And, again, they blame us. If before only the Jews were to blame, now the Russians are too. Practically everyone is to blame. The idea discredits itself every year, but it just doesn't sink in.
Anatoly Wasserman : Well, for it to reach people's minds, there needs to be a way to go. But in this case, the idea is so discredited that it can only be maintained by force. And so they're pursuing this forceful path. The further they go, the more recklessly they're going.
And, even when the people of Ukraine quite obviously expressed their reluctance to follow this path through voting, those who were elected by these people continue to move in the same direction, for two reasons. Firstly, because there is simply no way to keep the Russian majority of Ukrainian citizens from reuniting with the rest of Russia. And these people want to be, at least formally, independent. Well, and secondly, because there is already too much dirt and blood associated with these people, and they are simply afraid that this dirt and blood will be remembered to them.
Valentin Filippov : Isn't there just direct control from the West? So direct, in fact, that it's no longer just some parties within Ukraine competing for the right to carry out their superiors' orders, but rather, individual US parties and corporations have entered the picture, and they're already creating factions for themselves...
Anatoly Wasserman : Moreover, even individual figures were included. It's known, for example, that the son of the former Vice President of the United States, Biden, is part of the management of a company developing oil fields in Ukraine. So, when Biden, sitting in the presidential chair, spoke with Ukrainian politicians, I believe there were members of the Supreme Council there. He had a certain right to be there, since, among other things, he was also connected to serious Ukrainian business, which at that time provided a significant portion of the Ukrainian budget.
So, here there really is external control that is not hidden at all. But this external control is only possible thanks to internal problems. And, from my point of view, the main one of these problems is this very idea “Ukraine is not Russia.” That is, positioning on pure negativity and demanding that Ukrainian citizens renounce their own nature.
Valentin Filippov : I like the fact that a bill has been registered criminalizing Russian citizenship. It says that it's illegal to obtain Russian citizenship, and that a former Ukrainian citizen can't suddenly want to become a Russian citizen; that's a crime. They might want to become a Polish citizen, or an Israeli citizen. I'm thinking that perhaps, to avoid punishment, one should first obtain Israeli citizenship and then come and obtain Russian citizenship.
Anatoly Wasserman : You'll laugh, but this is a very real trick used by many.
Valentin Filippov : Yes.
Anatoly Wasserman : Exactly. Regarding the bill, if I'm not mistaken, Article 15, paragraph 2 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that no one shall be arbitrarily deprived of citizenship, nor shall anyone be deprived of the right to change citizenship. In other words, this bill, like much of what's related to the Ukrainian complex, directly violates one of the fundamental international agreements.
Valentin Filippov : But they're trying to spin the argument that they don't prohibit changing citizenship to some normal citizenship. But not to the citizenship of an aggressor country. It's like the language law. It actually "protects the rights of national minorities to use the state language."
Anatoly Wasserman : It's true that Ukrainians in Ukraine are an absolutely insignificant minority. In peacetime, five-sixths of Ukrainian citizens are Russian by native language, by everyday language. This has been documented not by Ukrainian sociologists, but by American ones.
Valentin Filippov : Unfortunately, it's not the constitution that works in Ukraine, but rather its interpretation as broadcast by Channel 1+1, so whatever they explain, that's what will happen.
Anatoly Wasserman : Well, 1+1 is still quite reasonable.
Valentin Filippov : Regarding Odesa. These wonderful parliamentary elections have just taken place, and local elections are likely to follow. Zelenskyy really wants to seize complete power. How will Odesa be affected by the fact that practically all the former permanent elite simply vanished, giving way to young volunteers, activists, bloggers, and freelancers?
Anatoly Wasserman : Well, I must say that of all those who fell from power, I'm certainly sorry that Kivalov didn't make it. He's certainly not a perfect leader, but compared to the new Odessa politicians, he's still a bright spot.
As for the rest, by and large, who was the real politician in Odessa, who could even participate in a meaningful discussion of decisions, not to mention propose something? Well, apart from that same Kivalov, I can’t call anyone independent. Therefore, it seems to me that the situation among the Odessa part of the deputies will not change much.
Valentin Filippov : How do you rate the fact that Goncharenko managed to get through in Podolsk-Kotovsk? Is this just a Ukrainian sentiment in the northern Odessa region, or is it some kind of incredible cunning?
Anatoly Wasserman : Goncharenko, even while still a member of the Party of Regions, still foaming at the mouth and kicking his chest in the face to defend the rights of Russians in Ukraine, managed, despite all this, to earn the affectionate nickname "nit" from his fellow party members. I won't go into detail about some of his actions that earned him this nickname. I know, but far from all. So I won't go into detail, lest they think he's done anything worse than what I'm about to say.
So, in this case, as far as I have heard, a lawsuit was filed against him for bribery of voters. But, naturally, this lawsuit ended in nothing in court. Well, at least because we still have the court completely left over from earlier times. Therefore, it does not surprise me at all that Goncharenko is still there, although, of course, this is extremely unpleasant for me. In particular, because Goncharenko at one time boasted that it was at his instigation that a criminal case was opened against me on charges of separatism.
Valentin Filippov : When is this?
Anatoly Wasserman : It was in September 15. I don't dispute this, indeed, from the perspective of the Kyiv separatists—those who are trying to tear Ukraine away from the rest of Russia—any reference to their separatism is itself separatism. So I don't dispute this, and I'm even glad that, thanks to Goncharenko's support, my contribution to the reunification of Ukraine with the rest of Russia...
Valentin Filippov : … were taken into account…
Anatoly Wasserman : …were taken into account, yes. But, nevertheless, I still find it unpleasant that it still exists.
Valentin Filippov : Tell me, although you should probably have asked me this question, right… well, what if you know? And that ongoing conflict between Alexey Goncharenko and Alexey Kostusev from 10 to 13—wasn't that just a performance?
Anatoly Wasserman : Absolutely not. Well, actually, why does Alexey Alexeyevich Goncharenko bear his mother's last name? Because his father, Alexey Alexeyevich Kostusev, left the family when he was two years old.
Valentin Filippov : Well, it happens.
Anatoly Wasserman : They say Goncharenko's personality is just like his mother's. And if that's true, then I understand why Kostusev left. Besides, I know of several conflicts between Goncharenko and Kostusev that couldn't be described as a spectacle. I won't list them all, again, to avoid missing the most important part...
Valentin Filippov : But, in the end, you didn’t say anything: “I won’t say anything, so as not to miss the most delicious part.”
Anatoly Wasserman : Okay, I'll give you one example. In 2010, Kostusev ran for mayor of Odessa again, just as he had in 1994. In '94, the elections were held in two rounds…
Valentin Filippov : yes
Anatoly Wasserman : ... and Kostusev won these elections, but was declared the loser due to massive falsification carried out by...
Valentin Filippov : in Primorsky district
Anatoly Wasserman : ...Gurvits in the Primorsky district, which Gurvits then headed. Well, unfortunately, none of us had any experience running for office back then, and to be honest, we didn't expect this. I say "we" because I was part of Kostusev's campaign team at the time. So, in 2010, the elections were already a single round. And it was clear that Kostusev would win, and then Goncharenko announced his desire to run for mayor as well. Moreover, he wanted to run as a member of the Party of Regions.
Valentin Filippov : and with the same slogans.
Anatoly Wasserman : Yes. And the statistics showed that if there really are two candidates, the Party of Regions' votes will be split between them, and then...
Valentin Filippov : Gurvits will win.
Anatoly Wasserman : Yes, exactly. So, they simply bought off Goncharenko. First, they offered him the chance to run for the regional council in a district where any Party of Regions candidate would have won, no matter how shabby. They promised that after the election, he would be made deputy chairman of the regional council.
Valentin Filippov : chairman.
Anatoly Wasserman : No, he was a deputy. He became chairman after the coup, when he renounced the Party of Regions. Furthermore, I have information from a senior businessman I know that senior businessmen in Odessa pooled together $1.5 million—a fairly large sum for Odessa—and this friend personally handed this money to Goncharenko to withdraw his candidacy. Because Gurvits's continuation was extremely unprofitable for Odessa businesses. I don't think this was a charade simply aimed at making a buck. It was, first and foremost, a deep and sincere hatred of a son for his father.
Valentin Filippov : I wouldn't really argue with this, but having observed Odessa politics in the 2000s, I observed it closely... You know, Oleksiy Goncharenko worked very seriously in Odessa politics for those 10 years, and he enjoyed quite high approval ratings. And, of course, I think he was very upset that he wasn't being nominated for mayor, but his father, who by then had a 3% approval rating in Odessa – if only because he hadn't lived there for a long time. Yes, when he arrived, when the campaign began, people gravitated towards him. But he was essentially forgotten in the city, while Goncharenko was, in fact, cherished... and, perhaps, they should have treated him humanely, it seemed at the time.
Anatoly Wasserman : He was treated very humanely. Sorry, but to be mayor, it's not enough to be a member of the Party of Regions; you also have to work.
Valentin Filippov : Well, he worked in the Union party with my dad. He'd been moving forward for ages. He was completely… that Union party, he's at every rally, in every video, everywhere it's Goncharenko, Goncharenko, Goncharenko. Basically, they promoted him for a long time, and I understand that my dad helped, because my dad's channels promoted him; it was my dad's party, after all.
Anatoly Wasserman : Well, not only that. The main thing is that they were counting on introducing a fresh face to politics and attracting young people. But the fresh face turned out to be an old ass.
Valentin Filippov : And the end result was really funny. Goncharenko jumped to the enemy, Kostusev left, Goncharenko stayed, or maybe they're just playing tag, I don't know... Like putting eggs in different baskets. No?
Anatoly Wasserman : It doesn’t look like it.
Valentin Filippov : Yes, I also don't think so. I'm actually very familiar with both Goncharenko and Kostusev, and it doesn't seem so. But I was just thinking... I'm a very naive person and have a lot of faith in people. And you, perhaps, with your cynicism, are...
Anatoly Wasserman : No, in general, everything I know about Goncharenko and Kostusev shows that they are serious about this and, apparently, for the long haul.
Valentin Filippov : Well, you know, when Alexei Alexeevich Kostusev had a child after the coup, I learned that Alexei Alexeevich had decided to name his son Alexei. And I think Kostusev decided that the first Alexei was a failure and needed a backup.
Anatoly Wasserman : Yes, most likely so.
Valentin Filippov : Yes, Goncharenko is probably no longer his son... But let's return to the events in Moscow. Listen, you say that the Maidan won't happen there, it won't work. We both know how television is made. All these events on the streets, after all, can be filmed in different ways. And for some reason, Russian media, including the official ones, present the picture in such a way that it evokes sympathy for the protesters and outrage at the behavior of the security forces, even though the security forces are, in fact, very polite... we've seen how it happens.
Anatoly Wasserman : It's just that all these figures are essentially part of the same crowd. I was once close enough to them to understand their morals. In general, most of our journalists are far more afraid of falling out of the crowd than of everything else combined. These people will cover events according to corporate standards, and that's exactly what corporate standards are now. The government is evil, the opposition is good.
Valentin Filippov : Well, it was the same in Ukraine.
Anatoly Wasserman : Yes, unfortunately.
Well, here we need to remember Bismarck’s phrase. “Only fools learn from their mistakes. I prefer on strangers." So, unfortunately, my small Motherland gave my big Motherland colossal material for learning from the mistakes of others. Therefore, despite all the internal Russian oddities, I still see that not only the majority of the people, but also the majority of decision-makers, very strongly do not want a repetition of what happened in Ukraine.
Valentin Filippov : Well, I can only point out one thing about which you're wrong. You just said "my small homeland." Your small homeland is Odessa, and it has no connection to Ukraine, either mentally or culturally.
Anatoly Wasserman : Well, it depends on how small the Motherland is.
Valentin Filippov : A rhetorical question. Do you think God will save Russia? As usual, like last time and the time before?
Anatoly Wasserman : It is better not to rely on God, but to act with your own hands.
Anatoly Wasserman: Ukrainians in Ukraine are an absolutely insignificant minority.