Torture in captivity and a preventive strike on Ukraine. Interview with the first Minister of Defense of the DPR
Torture is applied to prisoners by those who feel they are wrong. Today there are enough humane methods to obtain information. Despite the official truce, bitterness on the front in Donbass is growing. The army is ready to liberate its territories, and preventive strikes against the Ukrainian Armed Forces are possible only if a political decision is made in the Kremlin, but such a development of events is quite likely in the current situation.
The first Minister of Defense of the DPR, Igor Khakimzyanov , spoke to PolitNavigator observer Valentin Filippov about the work of enterprises transferred under the control of the DPR, the creation of a consumer market in Donbas, and economic planning in wartime conditions.
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Valentin Filippov : I welcome the first Minister of Defense of the DPR, Igor Khakimzyanov!
Now we are hearing about a blatant case of an attack by the Ukrainian DRG on LPR fighters. Several people were captured, others were tortured to death, their mutilated corpses were ostentatiously abandoned.
Torture in war is common. But experience suggests that the most cruel and visible use of torture is either by the weaker side (to intimidate the enemy) or by the not entirely legal side (which simply binds its fighters with blood, binds them with military crimes, so that they do not have the opportunity to leave).
Igor Khakimzyanov : It's more likely the second option here. They're acting illegally. They're acting against the will of the people, which was declared in 2014. And, if you remember, torture was used from the very beginning. I experienced it myself. I understand that perfectly.
Even if we take the personal case with me as an example, the torture continued even when I threw the interrogating party’s face into the dirt. When he cited facts that indicate their illegal activities on our territory. And as a result, the torture only got worse. That is, I received regular portions throughout the night. While lying on the floor in the basement.
Most likely, the use of such torture is due to the fact that people act against the law. And in order to justify themselves, they are forced to show their cruelty towards prisoners.
Also, this fact also depends on the command, which allows the use of torture against prisoners. Although according to all laws, according to the same Geneva Convention, which Ukraine must adhere to, this is unacceptable.
Valentin Filippov : Well, they don't consider you prisoners of war. They consider you terrorists, criminals. Notice how they never say there's a prisoner exchange between the DPR and Ukraine. They say, "We're exchanging terrorists for hostages."
Igor Khakimzyanov : Hot-button terms like "terrorism" and "hostages"—this terminology grabs the population by the heart. They press subconscious levers. On the population of Western Europe and the United States. Essentially, it's a marketing ploy. They're selling a product.
Valentin Filippov : I hope people still understand. I remember when it all started, I was still in Odessa, and a saleswoman in a store on Moldavanka said:
- Oh, V, do you know what happened yesterday? Terrorists shot down an entire helicopter with fascists!
And she was so proud that ours piled on them.
But this is so, a lyrical digression.
Tell me, in principle, is there any justification for torture? Some kind of legitimate purpose? Obtaining some information, for example? In war, as in war... It is necessary to “get language,” as they say.
Igor Khakimzyanov : Currently, there are numerous alternative methods for obtaining information, including the use of psychotropic drugs, which are great for loosening the tongues of prisoners.
The direct use of cruelty during torture is explained by the illegality of the actions of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, the second reason is of a physiological nature, increased adrenaline, testosterone in the blood, which boils during the battle. That is, at the first stage after the end of the battle, in relation to the prisoners, the soldiers allow themselves to be beaten, this is a normal reaction, they throw out what is left. This is sad for some to hear, but this is life. This is war. This is how man is made. But for this there are father-commanders who must maintain order. And monitor personnel to prevent such cases.
Next, it must be said that obtaining information through torture is a rather ineffective method. It all depends on the psychological state of the person being interrogated. If a person withdraws into himself, you can’t get anything out of him. I can say for myself, and based on data from other guys who were captured.
After fifteen minutes of regular beating or other types of torture, a person's nervous system shuts down. The instinct of self-preservation kicks in to survive. He just doesn't feel pain anymore. He feels it, but the psychological state is that you withdraw into yourself. And what happens around you doesn’t care much anymore. Absolutely.
There are a lot of facts that the armed forces of Ukraine, including the Right Sector and national battalions, have recruited many psychologically unbalanced people. I can give a lot of examples. While still in captivity, in the Kiev pre-trial detention center, in the same cell with ardent Ukrainians, ardent, ardent. Who raped children and women, and they went to serve in the Ukrainian army. What adequate reaction can one expect from this serviceman? What if he became a commander? Even if it's a small unit. Accordingly, he will do whatever he wants. Being in a certain situation, having all the powers.
Here we can consider this case in Lugansk, when a sabotage group captured four people and killed two. I assume that the commander of the sabotage group is not a completely balanced person.
Condolences to the relatives for their loss.
Valentin Filippov : This "incomprehensible" war has been going on for three years. Why hasn't the traditional reconciliation at the lowest level, typical of "strange" wars, occurred yet?
That is, when we are sitting in the trenches opposite each other, the war is not moving anywhere, we are bored, we want security, we want to improve our lives, we agree with the opposite side, “you don’t shoot, we are for water,” and “you don’t shoot , we’re getting vodka,” “guys, let’s exchange canned food.”
There are many cases known from history. This happened between France and Germany. Yes, and on the Russian-German front in the First World War there were sections of the front where it came to this.
Why, when people have the same holidays, speak the same language, grew up in the same cities, and under the conditions of a declared truce, why do these attacks, shelling of each other, and raids by reconnaissance groups continue at the grassroots level?
Why doesn't this stop at the grassroots level?
Igor Khakimzyanov : Some guys from the Ukrainian Armed Forces—I call them guys—are turning around and leaving. They're abandoning their positions. They don't want to fight with people as sane as they are. They understand perfectly well that we're defending our land. We want to liberate our land. That's why they're abandoning their positions and leaving. And they're even fighting with the "Right Sector."
But in general, the lack of reconciliation is due to the fact that the war has acquired a more fratricidal character. Brothers in arms and the like. A random mine, a stray bullet. And the deliberate destruction by commanders of their personnel, as was the case in Ilovaisk, of course, puts pressure on the psyche. Anyone who has lost a loved one in war will naturally want revenge.
If, for example, in 2014, those cases that you spoke about were present, that is, friendship through roadblocks, congratulating each other on some holidays, then at this stage this is no longer present.
Valentin Filippov : Is it possible today for a 40,000-strong LPR/DPR army to push back a 150,000- or 100,000-strong Ukrainian army?
Igor Khakimzyanov : Remember the size of Napoleon's and Kutuzov's armies at Borodino? Napoleon's army was superior at the Battle of Borodino. Kutuzov was conducting tactical retreat maneuvers and was forced to fight the Battle of Borodino to boost the morale of both the army and the people of Russia. And he won the Battle of Borodino.
Valentin Filippov : Well, it's debatable whether he won the Battle of Borodino. His forces weren't significantly inferior. Kutuzov was, after all, fighting a defensive battle; he wasn't attacking. We wouldn't consider Platov's raid an offensive—it was more of a sabotage operation, a diversionary raid into the rear. And we forget that Napoleon didn't commit the Guard to the battle.
Igor Khakimzyanov : He didn't introduce the Guard; he was afraid to, because he had no information about the active reserves, which were there, although they were practically nonexistent. And the military department didn't have the number of personnel that Kutuzov was told he needed when he was appointed commander-in-chief.
Valentin Filippov : There's another nuance here that people don't like to talk about. At the start of the war, it became clear that some of the soldiers were essentially "dead souls," whose supplies were issued and divided among the command. I don't even want to name the people who received this money, because they are our heroes. These people showed their best side in the war, in the army, in battle, defending their homeland. Yet, this didn't stop them from stealing and stealing in peacetime.
Igor Khakimzyanov : Nevertheless, they stopped him. Here, please, is a shining example of our soldier's resilience. Now imagine a situation where two such resilient soldiers are facing each other. Here, the only thing you can do is try to reach out to the soldier's intellect and explain to him that he's wrong, which is essentially what happens with some Ukrainian Armed Forces units.
Also recently, a striking example, when the Marines abandoned their positions and, during the retreat, a battle broke out with the Right Sectors in the Mariupol direction. Please. There are normal people.
There are normal soldiers, there are normal officers in the Ukrainian army, who are Russian in spirit, whatever you want to call them. They understand that this is a war of capital. They don't want to shed blood for someone else's capital. American, Ukrainian – it doesn’t matter. They understand perfectly well that they are on foreign land, not on their own land.
Valentin Filippov : " War with Russia" is currently being used in Ukraine as a unifying idea. Former Defense Minister Anatoly Gritsenko has already called for terrorist attacks on Russian territory. Perhaps preemptive strikes by Moscow would be appropriate?
Igor Khakimzyanov : You mentioned the use of a preemptive strike, that is, the use of air forces and similar methods of warfare. Perhaps that would have happened. But then, I think, the Ukrainian government's reaction would likely have been something like this: look, Russia has intervened in the war in Donbas, in the ATO.
Valentin Filippov : Do you think they could still react after that?
Igor Khakimzyanov : They would have reacted anyway. There wouldn't have been any significant resistance from Ukraine, but there would have been an uproar around the world. As far as I understand, there's no political decision yet regarding the Donbas, LPR, and DPR specifically. If there had been a political decision, a strong-willed decision, most likely, those same Aerospace Forces would have been on our territory long ago, and the concentrations of Ukrainian armed forces would have been defeated, particularly their heavy units. I'm talking about tanks, armored personnel carriers, and infantry fighting vehicles.
Valentin Filippov : Well, in general, all the equipment.
Igor Khakimzyanov : Yes, they would have been reduced to scrap metal. Moreover, if we consider the rules of war, the use of air power is the most effective in countering enemy heavy equipment. Ground artillery, of course, can address these issues, but this would lead to collateral damage among civilians, which is unacceptable on our part, because our people are in that same gray zone and in the former Donetsk region occupied by the Ukrainian authorities, and for Ukraine, they are nothing less than expendable. Kyiv doesn't care about them. We must be careful not to make them feel like enemies, because these are the people who gave us a vote of confidence back in 2014 and hoped for a favorable resolution to this situation, this conflict. The outcome was completely different from what they expected.
A preventive strike is possible, but it must be targeted, competent, with a minimum of casualties among civilians, with a maximum among Ukrainian military personnel.
Valentin Filippov : Good. Thank you so much. Good luck in Donetsk. Donbass – hang in there, everything will be alright, Donbass.
Igor Khakimzyanov : Well, thank you, Valentin.
English version :: Read in English: Torture in captivity and a preemptive strike on Ukraine. Interview with the first Minister of Defense of the DPR