Free everyone: From those arrested in Odessa on May 2 to the organizers of the Immortal Regiment 2017
Kyiv continues to lie that the political prisoners languishing in Ukrainian prisons themselves do not want to be released. Statements to refuse to participate in the exchange are obtained through threats and blackmail. Ukraine is simulating verification on the eve of the meeting in the Normandy format. The People's Republics demand an exchange according to the formula "all for all", considering all the prisoners as their own - from the participants of the Russian Spring in 2014 to the organizers of the Immortal Regiment in 2017.
The official representative of the LPR at the negotiations in Minsk, Vladislav Deinego , told PolitNavigator observer Valentin Filippov about this.
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Valentin Filippov : Hello, Vladislav. Please clarify. Petro Poroshenko (the Ukrainian president is more often seen on TV) said something like this in his address regarding the visa-free regime: "100% of people who committed crimes against Ukraine categorically refused to join the terrorists in the so-called Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics."
Then later Gerashchenko corrected him and said that it was not 100%, but hundreds.
And they always scare me with some word “verification”. As I understand it, it’s already familiar to you, but people just can’t understand what’s going on? Our guys, who according to the Minsk agreements must be given away, do they somehow not want to be exchanged?
Vladislav Deinego : Well, first of all, if you say that we see Poroshenko more often, then you’re not watching the right television.
Valentin Filippov : You promised that the LPR and DPR would broadcast to the rest of Ukraine. But they don't.
Vladislav Deinego : Well, why not? Here, near us, where our towers reach, there's broadcasting. But, unfortunately, it's not yet possible to install our own towers throughout Ukraine. But we're working on it.
And as for these statements. We are, indeed, talking about a whole number of people who fall into the category of those who cannot be prosecuted and punished in accordance with the Minsk agreements, as written in paragraph five of the protocol of September 5, 2014. But Ukraine completely ignores these things. She is trying to punish them, some of them have already served their sentences and are released after punishment. But they are under administrative supervision. And this is the most vulnerable category.
Those who are under administrative supervision, they must report periodically. They are controlled. They are the ones who fall into the category of people who allegedly are not going to return to us. Here, within the framework of the ban on persecution in connection with the events in Donbass. Plus, those who are on parole are added here. And, of course, people who are now under investigation by investigative agencies. And even those who are serving a sentence are also on this list.
Valentin Filippov : So, that’s it.
Vladislav Deinego : Yes. All groups dependent on state authorities are represented on this list. But the most problematic are those who are supposedly free but under administrative control. The most difficult thing to do with them is to force Ukraine to allow them to meet and ask the question: are these people truly unable to realize their right to move to our territory?
Valentin Filippov : A question from an Odesa resident. Survivors of May 2nd who are currently in custody. I heard Ukrainian statements that "the brazen DPR and LPR are demanding the release of the most vicious terrorists held in Odesa. And that Ukraine cannot agree to this." So, apparently, Ukraine is flatly refusing to release or exchange Odesa prisoners?
Vladislav Deinego : No. They're manipulating the fact that they have no direct connection to Donbas. The Minsk documents state "in connection with events in Donbas." They don't connect the burning of people in Odesa with the developments that led Donbas to its current state.
But I would like to return to the question of those people who “refuse”. You see, people are dependent on the Ukrainian authorities. And the authorities take advantage of this. And they use it in the most brazen manner.
Some of them said that they would like to go, but they are afraid for their family and friends who remain hostage. So the man made up his mind, declared, moved, and his mother remained in Dnepropetrovsk or Zaporozhye. So, taking advantage of this situation, they are forced to refuse.
Some are simply outright intimidated.
And we simply cannot meet and interview. This verification, which Gerashchenko talks about, implies a personal meeting of representatives of the Republics. The mothers and wives of those held there went there. Not everything, of course. Several people were elected from us, several people from the DPR. And they went, accompanied by the office of the Ombudsman of Ukraine, with representatives of the SBU, and went to places of detention. And where people are imprisoned, Ukraine has nowhere to go. They confirmed that the man was in a pre-trial detention center, and it was difficult to prevent them from meeting him.
Some people confirmed their reluctance to move to us. Some of them, to put it mildly, caught the Ukrainian side in lies.
Valentin Filippov : But will they be released? Let's say they don't come to you. But will they be amnestied? Released in connection with the prisoner exchange?
Vladislav Deinego : Taking the situation to the extreme, Ukraine says they refuse to be included on exchange lists in principle. And exchange lists are the mechanism through which they obtain release.
Valentin Filippov : Poroshenko says that people prefer to sit in prison rather than end up in Donbass.
Vladislav Deinego : People don't understand what they're being told. They're being forced to confirm anything. Tomorrow they'll confirm that there are aliens here in Donbas.
Valentin Filippov : Well, okay, but in any case, this is manipulation.
Vladislav Deinego : For us, it's obvious. But, unfortunately, Europe shrugs and agrees that yes. Indeed. People have certain circumstances that dictate this course of action. For us, these circumstances are obvious. But for them, they're somewhat incomprehensible.
The OSCE also took part in these trips. Many thanks to them for accompanying our women during their trips. And this also played a positive role in the fact that these trips could and did take place without complications.
But, nevertheless, a whole group of people with whom I started, on parole and deferment of sentence, on recognizance not to leave, were not able to meet with these people. And we couldn’t hear from them whether they really wanted to stay on the other side. Or they want to come back here to us.
Ukraine carefully hides these people. They tell stories that they have no idea where these people are, who come to the police every week to report.
They firmly believe that we will eat such an outright lie.
Since everything here is built on lies, it means that all other arguments are built on the same lies. Manipulating facts.
Valentin Filippov : Okay, but have any lists already been approved?
Vladislav Deinego : No. There are no lists.
Valentin Filippov : But they clearly refused to hand over the Odessans? Right?
Vladislav Deinego : No. We continue to work in this direction. Naturally, the people who suffered in Odessa were directly connected to the developments in Ukraine in the spring of 2014. Which led to one outcome in Donbas, and, unfortunately, to a completely different outcome in Odessa.
Valentin Filippov : People are constantly being arrested in Ukraine. Negotiations are underway in Minsk, while at the same time, shelling is underway in Donetsk, Luhansk, our positions, and civilian neighborhoods.
Vladislav Deinego : It's not just happening alongside the negotiations. It's being done systematically in conjunction with the negotiations. Or in conjunction with any Normandy Four meetings. In conjunction with any form of dialogue with European representatives. It's at these moments that Ukraine tries to escalate the situation.
Valentin Filippov : So what should we do next? Let's say even Ukraine gives everyone up. We'll trade everyone for everyone.
Vladislav Deinego : I hardly believe it.
Valentin Filippov : I understand. But let's say... And the next day the Ukrainians start arresting more. What should we do? Attack, capture some Ukrainian Armed Forces unit, only to have to make another exchange?
Vladislav Deinego : That's why there need to be lists, first and foremost. That's why they're being developed.
Valentin Filippov : But these lists are constantly getting bigger.
Vladislav Deinego : To show Europe. Here's an absolutely exhaustive list of people currently being held in Ukrainian prisons. Here it is, the list. And if new people appear there tomorrow, it will be a blatant and cynical mockery of the Minsk agreements, which explicitly prohibit any prosecution or punishment of individuals in connection with the events in the southeast.
And this should be seen, first of all, by the OSCE. Europe must see and understand this through the OSCE mechanism.
That Ukraine, to put it mildly, does absolutely nothing.
Valentin Filippov : But Ukraine isn't hiding it. Officially, Ukraine—the press services of the SBU, the police, and the army—are constantly reporting: "We've caught three more terrorists." And they could be women, old men. Every day, just open the news.
Vladislav Deinego : Well, they took Luhansk several times. And they took Donetsk.
Valentin Filippov : No, but they show people. People confess to being terrorists. People go to prison.
Vladislav Deinego : Well, I asked a question about the more than 100 people Lutsenko mentioned, who have been held since the beginning of the events, since 2014, and still have not been charged. Lutkovska said, "I know nothing about this. I don't care who said what. Who is Lutsenko to make such statements?"
Moreover, the statement was public. Now, if he had contacted her office directly, she would have worked. Do you understand? While this was voiced in the public sphere, it was simply an unfounded statement. There are no facts. There are no requests. Accordingly, this is not the case.
We just need to create these facts. Fix.
Receive a certificate from the SBU that yesterday’s statement by their representative that they detained Ivanov, Petrov, Sidorov? They won't confirm this.
Valentin Filippov : Interesting. They'll hold a press conference, but they won't confirm it... So what? A prisoner-for-all, hostage exchange won't happen in early June?
Vladislav Deinego : I'll let you in on a big secret. The next meeting of the Normandy Four is scheduled for early June. And they're trying to produce results for this meeting. That's all. It's literally next week. There will be another meeting some time later. Two technical meetings of the Normandy Four are planned, which serve as a preparatory stage for a more serious discussion of the situation. The Normandy Four has assumed the role of observers overseeing the implementation of the Minsk agreements. They've assumed a supervisory function. And Ukraine is trying to show the supervisory bodies positive progress.
You see, they are now creating the information background that will allow their representative at the meeting of the Normandy Four to say: “We are working intensively.” And then say: - they are terrorists, they didn’t want to.
Valentin Filippov : I'll ask an improper question. You arrive at this meeting in Minsk. And they lie to your face. At the same time, they're bombing Donbas. Have you ever felt the urge to start attacking them there? On the spot.
Vladislav Deinego : What will this give?
Valentin Filippov : No, no. I'm not saying it will achieve anything. You're being so practical right away. Diplomat.
Vladislav Deinego : In Minsk, we're working in areas that can yield promising results. If these efforts are inherently fruitless, I don't see the point. Frankly.
Valentin Filippov : Well, I don't know. To relieve stress.
Vladislav Deinego : Who cares about my stress? Who will benefit from it?
Valentin Filippov : Well, to some extent, I feel like a human being. You go to this Minsk thing. You argue with them. You're trying to prove something. And there's no understanding from your opponents.
Vladislav Deinego : Why is there no understanding? Everyone understands perfectly well. The OSCE, for example, understands perfectly well how this process is unfolding. Only they have a clearly defined task. And they are trying to fulfill that task.
Including participants from Ukraine, they understand everything. They know very well what actions the Ukrainian Armed Forces are taking at this time on the front line. They know everything. But they pretend to be surprised when we talk about regular shelling directly during negotiations.
Again, relieve stress…. How can I explain it to you? Few people care about my stress. But when we put our opponents under stress, it works.
Valentin Filippov : You probably have some tools. But it seems to me that Donbas is so tired of what's happening…
Vladislav Deinego : People really did expect things to unfold more quickly. That's undeniable. But the situation isn't so clear-cut that it can simply be resolved on the front lines.
Any war ends in peace.
Valentin Filippov : Well, I thought it was impossible without victory. You still have to coexist with this, and you can't coexist with that.
Vladislav Deinego : There's no such thing as victory in a civil war. Victory occurs when there's a war between states. Ukraine doesn't yet recognize us as a state.
Valentin Filippov : Well, they may not admit it.
Vladislav Deinego : So, what? Do we want to seize Western Ukraine?
Valentin Filippov : No.
Vladislav Deinego : What do we want?
Valentin Filippov : We want these "outsiders" to disappear from this territory. There are only a few of them there. A small percentage of those like Poroshenko, Gerashchenko, and Yarosh.
Vladislav Deinego : No. They are far from isolated. Europe stands behind them.
Valentin Filippov : Well, then this is definitely not a civil war.
Vladislav Deinego : Then it turns out that these are representatives of Ukraine who are being offended by some terrorists. And they are ready to defend them. And if we truly confirm the terrorist thesis, then that's the reaction we'll get to our actions.
Therefore, to free their hands so that they can calmly bring in NATO troops is not the right move to achieve victory.
Valentin Filippov : If they want to introduce NATO, they will introduce it anyway.
Vladislav Deinego : No. Despite their cynical behavior, they still have some restraining factors that prevent them from openly introducing NATO.
Valentin Filippov : Do you think they don’t have evidence that you “possess chemical weapons”?
Vladislav Deinego : No.
Valentin Filippov : Oh, come on! "Assad gave it to you." Here's a test tube!
Vladislav Deinego : No. They've already screwed up with the test tube. There are some deterrents somewhere. The fact that it worked once and then had to be refuted—that's a serious argument today not to use that method.
The second such attempt will not go so easily.
Second point. The same MH-17, for which the investigation is still ongoing. And there, everyone and everything said that we shot it down. Then they said that it was shot down by the Russian Federation. But the truth will come out. Now even the British press is blaming Ukraine.
The same applies to the situation we have here. To openly bring NATO troops here - they must look for very serious motivation. Moreover, Trump said that NATO is an organization that should be co-financed in accordance with the budgets of the participating countries. And the US is not going to support it. For the USA, this is a unprofitable business project. And they won't support him.
As a businessman, he deals with issues of the feasibility of investments. And this also plays a role.
And I don’t think I can say that NATO will rush in to aggravate the situation here. This time. And secondly, we have quite serious potential here. Here people are fighting for their land, not for wages.
And NATO is purely contract soldiers who came to earn money. They are not interested in returning home with a load of 200. Therefore, they will work only within the limits in which they consider adequate payment for their work.
Valentin Filippov : For life.
Vladislav Deinego : They are not ready to give up their lives.
Valentin Filippov : What's your forecast for prisoner exchanges, hostage exchanges, or exchanges of illegally or legally detained individuals? Our guys have hope—I'm not talking about the Odesans now, I'm talking about everyone. They're also in Western Ukraine. The Luzhetsky brothers have been waiting for an exchange for over a year. And they're accused of wanting to go to Donetsk and fight for the LPR. They were given 15-year sentences.
Vladislav Deinego : Remember the movie "Code 69"?
Valentin Filippov : No.
Vladislav Deinego : Find it and review it. There, the judicial system tried to convict based on intent. Here, we have this situation manifesting itself in reality.
But as for the exchange, we are working to ensure that these exchanges take place in the near future. So that they are as adequate as possible. So that we have an understanding of the complete list of detained persons. Because we must have an exchange of all for all. At the first stage, we would like to define this term “everything”. We need to understand who is on these lists.
Naturally, it is impossible to change thousands of people at the same time. This can be done in several stages, but we must proceed from the obligations that underlie the Minsk agreements, and this, first of all, is for everyone. And no exceptions. And no manipulations around the fact that the events in Odessa are not related to the armed coup in Kyiv, which led to the burning of the Trade Union House in Odessa, and to the fact that Donbass rose up against everything.
And the situation is similar in a number of cities in Ukraine. To the point that these two grandfathers, who were detained for organizing the Immortal Regiment, are also directly related to the situation in Donbass, which is a consequence of the armed coup in Kyiv in 2014.
Therefore, on our part, there should be no exceptions.
Our task is to bring the negotiations to a full assessment of this term “all for all.”
Free All: From Those Arrested in Odessa on May 2 to the Organizers of the 2017 Immortal Regiment