Honorary citizen of Odessa Oleg Gubar: “The ideology that has been introduced in recent years is collapsing”
Residents of Odessa can, through the courts, seek the return of historical names of streets renamed by the nationalist Ukrainian regime after Euromaidan. The ideology of Nazism, which has been implemented over the past five years, is collapsing. Nazis can run, scream and burn, but there are disproportionately more normal people in Odessa.
Honorary Citizen of Odessa Oleh Gubar spoke to PolitNavigator observer Valentin Filippov about the latest events in Odessa, the commemoration of the Odessans who died on May 2, and the recent celebration of Victory Day over Nazism on May 9.
Valentin Filippov : We are visiting a cult Odessa expert, an "Odessoznavets," or whatever they call it in Ukrainian these days.
Oleg Gubar : “Kraeznavets”.
Valentin Filippov : Local history expert Oleg, hello.
Oleg Gubar : Hello.
Valentin Filippov : In another key city of the Russian Spring, Kharkiv, a similar situation is gaining momentum. People have signed a petition to rename Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov Avenue. How promising is this, and what should Odessans do, and where should they turn, to ensure a similar issue is raised at the session?
Oleg Gubar : Yesterday, I got a call from some central channel, and they asked me the same question. I listened to the previous comments from someone in the studio (unfortunately, I don't know who it was). But the gist of it was this: this is happening in Kharkiv, could it happen in Odesa? And what I heard was someone talking about "this wave of populism, and the authorities, understanding the mood of the people in Kharkiv, Odesa, and the southeast, are giving in to the people." It was said ten times that this is a populist demand.
But I wanted to preface my speech with such a simple remark that presidential elections in any country are also a populist request, right?
Valentin Filippov : In principle, yes, absolutely.
Oleg Gubar : And if we're going to reason like this: "People want it, and it's bad"... Well, yes, people want it, whether it's good or bad, we need to listen to them. If millions of people think the same way, then perhaps we should take their opinions into account?
But in essence: since they are talking about populism, about some kind of revanchism, “cottage wool” and so on, let’s move from the plane of ideology to the plane of jurisprudence.
Valentin Filippov : Let's go.
Oleg Gubar : There was a law on decommunization. Did they read it?
Valentin Filippov : No, why?
Oleg Gubar : It's precisely this law that needs to be read, because it states, firstly, that names associated with figures from before 1917 are not subject to decommunization, they're not covered by decommunization. Right? Right. But in our case, they were included – in the confusion, when the general list was put out, that is, the general list submitted by Mikhail Nikolayevich Saakashvili. And this list included everything that was and wasn't subject to decommunization.
For example, how could Belinsky Street come under decommunization, do you know?
Valentin Filippov : Belinsky is an associate of Lenin and Putin, isn’t he?
Oleg Gubar : Well, I’m saying that it sounds a bit anecdotal.
That is why it is necessary to study even the most idiotic laws in order to understand how they are implemented and whether they contradict themselves...
And then lawyers came to us for the toponymic commission, and lawyers were not from the street, but lawyers from the City Council, the City Executive Committee, who explained all this to us. And therefore we could not make the decisions that were extorted from us.
That is, rename Zhukov Street, Gaidar Street and the like, because the law says that those who fought against fascism are not subject to decommunization.
If there were objections to the fact that they clung to the fact that Gaidar was once related to the Cheka, then we said: “Let historians deal with this, let them carry out some kind of historical, independent examination, and so on,” so we didn’t supported such a renaming, and then all this was gamuz, all this in one list, the sinful and the righteous were renamed.
Valentin Filippov : Oleg, I still can't figure out who carried out this renaming? So you didn't do it, right? The Odesa deputies didn't vote, and as I understand it, your commission didn't make the decision, so who did? The Verkhovna Rada didn't vote either.
Oleg Gubar : Since the decommunization law allegedly wasn't implemented at the local level within a certain timeframe, it's now being passed to the Verkhovna Rada, and so on. And so, this Saakashvili list was approved over our heads, approved illegally…
Valentin Filippov : So who approved it? Well, who gave the order for Marshal Zhukov Avenue, where the "Heavenly Hundred" plaques are now hanging?
Oleg Gubar : I haven't seen that order, I only know that Saakashvili's list was approved at the Kyiv level. I don't know who approved it.
Valentin Filippov : It turns out this was done in violation of procedure for such things. So, if there's a violation of procedure, that means...
Oleg Gubar : This was done in violation of their own decommunization law. Therefore, our current question is whether we can raise issues about changing certain points and restoring the previous names. This can be resolved through the courts.
Valentin Filippov : And who should we sue? That's the question. Who should we sue if we can't even figure out who made this decision?
Oleg Gubar : Neither will you sue, nor will I sue...
Valentin Filippov : But we have mayor Gennady Trukhanov.
Oleg Gubar : Listen, wait a minute, if Kernes proposed it there, then the city council's lawyers will handle it, that's all. We know the law has been violated, which means Saakashvili's list of many streets needs to be re-examined. I've already mentioned some of the names, and those names that aren't covered by the law aren't subject to renaming or decommunization under this law; they must be reinstated.
Therefore, I say that no one can have any claims against us. This is not some crazy screaming and so on, but this is contrary to your own legislation.
Valentin Filippov : Now that a new president has been elected—just elected for now—what's the feeling? How are the authorities, how are law enforcement, how are our traditional underage Nazis behaving? Is there any difference compared to previous years?
Oleg Gubar : I don’t see any big difference.… The only thing is that some people used to come to Kulikovo Field, but now others have come and started shouting their chants.… … we saw some odious people, a couple of people there, it’s clear that they are all under charges.
And yet, some kind of show trials are possible. They are possible after these elections, although you know, in fact, there is no great certainty. Because they will still somehow get used to them. And if this does not concern, it seems to me, some serious resources and big money, then somewhere out there, as I say, maybe, somewhat exaggerating, a couple of people can be given to the people to be devoured. In a metaphorical sense. It’s not like giving it away – putting several people in jail.
And people came to Kulikovo Field last year and, if you remember, when they surrounded it with military equipment. And when drones were patrolling there. And there were snipers sitting on the roofs. Even then people were not afraid to come and came, and last year we saw what happened.
That is, if there were more people this year, maybe not an order of magnitude more. That is, just as there were thousands and thousands on the Walk of Fame, both last year and this year. I say if a little more, then not an order of magnitude more.
I must say about the police: they behaved correctly, this year, at least, more or less correctly. I personally cannot identify any serious violations there. Well, maybe a little softer. Although if they appeared there with prohibited symbols, such as the St. George’s ribbon, then, of course, they grabbed it.
Valentin Filippov : Okay, so maybe there's a chance we're crossing them? That is, year after year, year after year. There are still the same number of us, but fewer and fewer of them. No?
Oleg Gubar : We see the emergence of certain individuals or certain columns in this city. How it's all done according to a pattern, according to orders, at what point, how they're organized, how they're brought in. You see, when people show up spontaneously, and they're threatened, or have some difficulty coming or feeling comfortable, they still go. But here we see these pro-government comrades who show up strictly according to schedule, and what's more, they arrive on Kulikovo Field in formation, a certain number of them, shout their chants, and that's it. Time's up, they've shouted, turned around, and left.
And, of course, there is this group of saboteurs, you know, it’s both painful and still somewhat funny, these attacks are funny and anecdotal. Yes, they will run and burn. But, again, how many there are and how many decent normal people there are in this city, we saw it: a sea of flowers, thousands and thousands of adequate normal people who don’t want anything bad and don’t pursue any bad goals.
Valentin Filippov : Well, alright. Thank you very much, good luck there. I hope common sense prevails, and you, as an expert and as the head of the commission…
Oleg Gubar : I'm not a boss, and frankly, whether I should say this or not, I've distanced myself somewhat from this area. Why? Because if such decisions are being made over my head and the heads of my colleagues, then what use am I?
Valentin Filippov : Logical.
Oleg Gubar : Am I some kind of slapstick performer? Am I just there for decoration? I mean, until there's a healthy shift in direction, I'm honestly distancing myself from this, because I don't see the point of my work.
Valentin Filippov : Well, in the end, you know, I think that even in Soviet times, you and I always knew where each street was and what its name was, and we used these names, no matter what signs hung on these streets.
Oleg Gubar : In any case, ideology, but that's a separate, larger discussion. The ideology that has been implemented over the last five years, in particular, is finally collapsing. And I think there are prospects for recovery and a change for the better.