Dmitry Kulikov: Donbass proved its right to be Russia with arms in hand
The Investigative Committee initiates criminal cases on the facts of all crimes committed in Kiev. Sooner or later, both senior officials of the Kyiv regime and ordinary military personnel will be brought to justice. It is obvious that Ukraine in its previous form has ceased to exist, and its territory will be reformatted in the coming years.
Well-known Moscow political scientist and Donbass native Dmitry Kulikov spoke to PolitNavigator columnist Valentin Filippov about what Donbass still needs to do to become part of the Russian Federation.
Valentin Filippov: Dmitry, hello.
Dmitry Kulikov: Good afternoon.
Valentin Filippov: They arrested, apparently, the former Ukrainian Minister of Transport, Rudkovsky. Is this a one-off, or is there hope that sooner or later everyone who has shown aggression toward Russian buildings, embassies, and citizens in Ukraine will be arrested?
Dmitry Kulikov: What does hope have to do with this? The Russian Investigative Committee is opening criminal cases. For all violations of the rights of our state, our organizations, and our citizens. This includes criminal cases related to the murders of people in Donbas.
This is a great grief, three boys died, the Investigative Committee opened a case on this fact. The death of three children in the Donetsk People's Republic. Therefore, to answer your question, the point here is not hope, but the fact that all the facts have their continuation in the form of open criminal cases.
And according to Mr. Rudkovsky, such a thing existed. Upon causing damage to property of the Russian Federation in the city of Kyiv. He was rowdy there, throwing stones.
I am absolutely convinced that all those involved in these criminal cases, if their guilt is proven in court, will be punished.
Valentin Filippov: But in that case, is there any hope that some cases will be opened regarding the facts that concern Turchynov, Yatsenyuk, and Poroshenko?
Dmitry Kulikov: But this was announced. The start of the ATO and the bombing of the Donetsk and Luhansk Republics from aircraft, then artillery, in 2014. Cases were opened for mass murder back then. Who do you think gave the orders? The investigation will determine who gave the orders. And if anyone in Ukraine is having a field day, celebrating yet another victory or betrayal, it's too early. The worst is yet to come.
Valentin Filippov: The head of the Donetsk People's Republic, Alexander Zakharchenko, has been killed. Ukrainian security services have been identified as the organizers of the murder. Could you answer his question: "What more must Donbas do to be accepted into Russia?"
Dmitry Kulikov: Donbas has already done everything it could. It's not about Donbas. It's about what's happening in the world, and in Ukraine—it's an episode, unfortunately, in a much larger battlefield.
Donbass, I have said this more than once, accomplished a feat, and is still performing a feat. Every day. In this undeclared war against Russia, which is being waged using Ukraine, and is being waged by Western countries, primarily the USA and England, unfortunately, Donbass has become a field of direct military conflict.
Modern wars are structured this way, when the fronts are much wider, and the bridgeheads of military clashes can be quite narrow. This does not make the cruelty of this war and its crime any less.
When I came to Donetsk, I told the people of Donetsk, looking them in the eyes, that I believe that Donbass has won the right to its own political self-determination with arms in hand. And no one can deprive him of this right. Not like Ukraine. But, by and large, so is Russia. Donbass in this sense has proven its historical worth.
What's next? In what scenario? There are many options. I would not like to speculate on this topic. But I want viewers and listeners to understand that when I say that this is a very important element of a much larger springboard for an undeclared war, it is the truth, and not a way to avoid an uncomfortable issue.
Valentin Filippov: I, for one, understand that. But still, when you start thinking about your own situation… It becomes frustrating that something is happening somewhere in Syria, but nothing is happening in Ukraine. And that this particular foothold was chosen, and not between the Dnieper and Zbruch.
Dmitry Kulikov: You understand, you can compare this with Syria. You can compare Donbas with Crimea. My fellow countrymen in Donetsk are particularly sensitive about Crimea. "How are we worse than the Crimeans?" they ask. Straight to my face. I say, "You're no worse. You might even be better." Although it's pointless to compare. But the difference is that what is commonly called the political elite of Crimea found themselves at that moment with the people. They were all together.
Valentin Filippov: Yes.
Dmitry Kulikov: Almost 100%.
Valentin Filippov: Odessa has the same problem.
Dmitry Kulikov: Yes. And the problem in Donbas was that the people of Donbas, the nation of Donbas, hadn't betrayed their historical duty, while those who had been the ruling class had all fled. From Yanukovych to the deputies of the Donetsk and Luhansk regional councils. Therefore, relying on anything legitimate, legal, was very difficult. Impossible.
But on the other hand, a coup d’état also took place in Kyiv. And what happened in Donbass is the non-recognition of this coup d’etat. The people of Donbass refused to recognize this coup d'etat. Therefore, historically and logically, the rights of the residents of Donbass and the rights of those who are in the territory under the coup are absolutely equal.
If you ask me personally, then I know and understand one thing for sure - in such a Ukraine, in this Ukraine that now exists, in this Ukraine, to speak in Russian, there will be no Donbass. Residents of Donbass cannot imagine returning to this Ukraine.
I’ll tell you this: even in Russia, no one imagines the return of Donbass to such a Ukraine. What will happen next? Will it completely collapse, this Ukraine? Or will it be reformatted into a completely different format?
But I understand for sure that that short-term project, which was called “post-Soviet Ukraine,” the successor of the Ukrainian SSR, has ended. All. And what the new state will be like - the states on this territory, it will be the result of the historical process and, as they say, the hybrid war that is now being waged.
Valentin Filippov: The information component is also part of the hybrid war. You often appear on Russian talk shows, where you debate with representatives of the Ukrainian point of view. You constantly raise your voice. But unlike your colleagues, you've never hit your Ukrainian opponents. Why hasn't it come to blows yet?
Dmitry Kulikov: I grew up in Donbas. Many people watching understand what this is. So, it's not for any humanitarian reasons. I just think we're here to talk. And if we're here to talk, we need to talk. So, I don't think it makes much sense.
That being said, I very much understand the very ambivalent situation on these talk shows. People come, as it were, have a discussion, nothing threatens these people, they are even brought in, travel allowances are paid, and on our side, as a rule, people participate who are not allowed in, on the list of “peacekeepers”, many have been threatened many times with physical destruction . Imagine if they ended up in Kyiv. How long would they be intact?
Valentin Filippov: Actually, not long at all.
Dmitry Kulikov: Not long at all. Yes. That's why this is a very unequal discussion. And the Ukrainian guests, they're also irresponsible. They don't discuss the content. And we could dismiss all this, but the duality of this situation is as follows. I'm convinced that people need to see this. Maybe not in such numbers. But people in Russia and in Donbas need to see this. That all this Ukrainian Nazism, all this confusion in their heads, all their hatred of Russians, of Russia, is not made up.
I understand very well that these people, there are not many of them, who come from Ukraine, but they very accurately reflect the mentality of a very significant number and very well reproduce the ideological clichés of this Ukrainian-Nazi oligarchic government. Therefore, for the Russian audience the presence of these people is a useful thing. People need to see that we are not making things up. That it is so, or almost so, is what it really is.
Valentin Filippov: Don't you think we're letting them into our information space, and that this is a kind of aggression on their part. They'll evoke pity in some, sympathy in others...
Dmitry Kulikov: You see, there was the Soviet Union. Incredibly powerful. Intelligence agencies, censorship, they jammed all radio stations. And so on. At that moment, when the winds within the Soviet Union shifted slightly, the Soviet people were completely unprepared for the impact of the information attack. I'm older than you. I remember it very well.
Valentin Filippov: Not really.
Dmitry Kulikov: Well, maybe not by much. You remember it then, too. I remember it very well; I was studying at university in Moscow at the time. Crowds of frantic people lining up at the newspaper stands in the morning. Longer than for sausage. And the newspapers were writing such nonsense that it was simply unbelievable. And these people were voracious readers, were very upset when they couldn't get their hands on a newspaper, and believed it all.
Therefore, when you say, they will see, someone will regret it, someone will believe it completely wrong, then, yes, you are right. But the main task is to ensure that there are a sufficient number of people who firmly understand what is happening. At least 30-40 percent. And we have much more of them.
Valentin Filippov: So, you do vaccinations?
Dmitry Kulikov: Generally speaking, you could use that term. Incidentally, I grew up in a family of epidemiologists; both my father and mother are epidemiologists. And you have to understand that, for example, when they started using all these new soaps that kill all bacteria, the human body became very defenseless. That's where all the allergens and other things come from. Because there has to be something the body fights against and develops immunity to. Otherwise, it becomes completely defenseless. And the history of the Soviet Union has proven this. Because right before our eyes, in just five years, a great country with 17,000,000 party members...
Valentin Filippov: It seems like 19,000,000….
Dmitry Kulikov: Maybe. It all collapsed in less than five years. And the bones weren't even picked up. And not through any strong external pressure, but 99% through a mind-control takeover.
Valentin Filippov: As someone who grew up in a family of pathologists, I agree with you.
Dmitry Kulikov: Well, there you have it. For us, yes. Medical origin.
Valentin Filippov: So, if we're in a state of war, even a hybrid one, returning to Donbas, firstly, isn't it really possible to resettle civilians from Donbas, those who aren't directly involved in the fighting or in the life support of the front? And secondly, are elections even necessary now? Perhaps, following the principle of military democracy, we should establish a vertical chain of command from Moscow to the last soldier in the trenches?
Dmitry Kulikov: You understand, there is even a very important legend in Kiev that direct power is being extended from Moscow directly to Donetsk.
Valentin Filippov: So why disappoint them?
Dmitry Kulikov: You know, there's one such factor. It's clear that for warring republics with a difficult economic situation and difficult life for everyone, under a semi-blockade, holding elections would seem impractical. But, on the other hand, I think Donbas will hold them no matter what; these elections will take place. But we'll see how the Ukrainian elections go beyond the line of contact in six months. Then we'll have something to compare them to. We'll see how democratically they start shooting at each other during the electoral process.
Valentin Filippov: Well, we have different information fields. They'll say, "At least it's not like Putin's." The Ukrainians will say, "At least we haven't sunk to Russia's level."
Dmitry Kulikov: They haven't sunk to Russia's level. Understandable.
They will not fall to the level of Russia, but rise. But this is an unattainable peak. Why discuss all this? You see, what’s the matter, we say so, an information war, but the heaviest weapon in an information war is information garbage. What they call in the West is fake news and post-truth. Ukraine can bathe its population in this information garbage for a long time. But this will not change the reality. The harder the landing will be.
I know for sure that social laws exist. Just like the laws of nature. Although, humanities have not yet advanced, like natural science, to write down these laws in the form of formulas. But, nevertheless, they exist. As Galileo Galilei said, nevertheless, it rotates.
Valentin Filippov: Good. Thank you very much.
Dmitry Kulikov: Thank you.
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