Case MH-17: A Dutch thorn in the sides of Biden and Poroshenko
The hearing of the District Court of The Hague in the case of the death of Boeing MH17 over Ukraine may drag on for years. After the prosecution side presents its arguments, the defense side presents its arguments. Lawyers point to the biased nature of the investigation and facts that support other versions of the crash. With a high degree of probability, the case will be sent for further investigation.
Donetsk historian and Moscow political scientist Vladimir Kornilov spoke to PolitNavigator columnist Valentin Filippov about whether recordings of Poroshenko-Biden conversations about Boeing will surface, how effective Ukraine’s external governance system is, and why Zelensky still does not have a personal curator in Washington.
Valentin Filippov : In our impromptu studio, we have a historian, political scientist, political strategist, and, in general, a highly respected figure, Vladimir Kornilov. Hello, Vladimir.
Vladimir Kornilov : Hello, Valentin.
Valentin Filippov : Vladimir, another batch of Poroshenko-Biden recordings was recently published. I'm reminded of the situation in Crimea in 2014, when Ukrainian patriots, wanting to confirm their patriotism, declared, "America is with us." Tell me, does this confirmation that America is with Poroshenko further confirm his status as a genuine Ukrainian politician, that he truly is the best, that everything is fine with him? I don't understand why this should be some kind of compromising material for him in the eyes of the Ukrainian political nation.
Vladimir Kornilov : You understand, these tapes don't confirm that America is with Ukraine. They actually confirm that America has long since entered Ukraine, and from a position that's actually uncomfortable for Ukrainians—patriots of independence. These tapes show Ukraine's complete, humiliating subjugation to the United States of America, in violation of Ukrainian laws, the constitution, and everything else. I understand, of course, that there is a certain category of Ukrainian patriots who have dreamed their whole lives of being someone's lackey, especially the lackey of the United States of America. You remember how Volodymyr Yavorivsky once summed up the essence of modern Ukraine. Remember that "pysmennik," or "mytets," there was one?
Valentin Filippov : I remember there was one like that.
Vladimir Kornilov : He played a significant role in "independent" Ukraine for a long time. He was Yulia Tymoshenko's spokesman and the head of the Ukrainian Writers' Union for many years. He laid it all out clearly at the time, and he did so deliberately. He later confirmed this quote when he declared, "Well, wait a minute. Ukraine was Russia's doormat for 350 years, but it hasn't been America's doormat for a single day. But it's worth a try." End of quote. So, what Poroshenko is doing is the embodiment of this entire postulate, the dream of the Ukrainian "conscious patriot."
What was presented in this new batch of tapes indicates that they wanted to sneeze at all this “independence” and the Constitution of Ukraine.
Well, imagine, Poroshenko discusses with Biden, and agrees on candidates, Biden tells him who to appoint, the permanent representative of the United States of America in the Prosecutor General's Office of Ukraine. If you open the constitution and laws of Ukraine, you will see that formally this body, the Prosecutor General’s Office, is generally independent. Even the president of Ukraine, not to mention the presidents of other countries and states, cannot interfere in its activities. And here it is calm, here is your permanent representative.
No, we heard it all, we knew it all. We have said more than once that in the SBU, for example, Nalyvaichenko once dedicated an entire corridor to representatives of the CIA and all structures. But they shouted to us: “You’re all lying.” The same Svidomo. “Yes, there is none of this!” – they shouted – “This is all a lie and Russian propaganda.” And here, please, are tapes where they talk directly, openly about these corridors, about these CIA.
By the way, Poroshenko directly thanks the CIA for killing his political opponent.
Valentin Filippov : I have a question. If Poroshenko asks Biden to tell Yatsenyuk to support the Minsk Agreements, tell me, maybe we're missing something. Are they all for the Minsk Agreements, maybe? Now it turns out Poroshenko is on our side. Well, not really... I don't need those agreements.
Vladimir Kornilov : He discussed this on the eve of the adoption of the law on special status, which had to be passed against the position of many factions in the Verkhovna Rada, including the faction controlled by Yatsenyuk. And Yatsenyuk was playing his own game. And, again, note that Yatsenyuk is communicating with Biden, and Poroshenko is asking Biden, the Vice President of the United States, to influence the Prime Minister of this very same Ukraine.
Can you imagine what the structure of communication was like? There is a pope - the unified leadership of Washington, and there are wings that actually do not communicate with each other.
And about the Minsk agreements. I say again, these were momentary problems of controllability of the Verkhovna Rada, which Poroshenko periodically lost. This required communication over the head, or rather, directly with the authorities. The main thing, again, is to look at what Biden says about Yatsenyuk’s dismissal. “Arseny needs guarantees.” That is, Arseny is afraid that he will be prosecuted in a criminal sense.
And Poroshenko gives guarantees to the Vice President of the United States that law enforcement agencies, which also seem to be independent, will not touch Yatsenyuk, let him be calm. That is, Biden acted as a guarantor in this sense. And, by the way, judging by the current position of the masses of all kinds of Western figures, they did the same with Poroshenko before last year’s elections. Because, pay attention, as soon as cases were initiated against Pyotr Alekseevich in Kyiv, immediately, instantly, dozens of Western European politicians, institutions, organizations, parties, ambassadors immediately chimed in and said: no, it’s impossible, we won’t allow it. These people are telling us something about the independence of the judicial system, that “guidism” has won in Ukraine, and now it is completely sovereign and “independent.”
Valentin Filippov : I just remembered that Yatsenyuk, after he resigned, went to the States to run around the Capitol in his underwear. I remember there were photos like that.
Vladimir Kornilov : And they all, mind you, as soon as the sword of Damocles hangs over someone... When they wanted to remove Avakov, where did he go first? To the United States, of course.
Valentin Filippov : It’s a great pity that we still haven’t been shown the recordings of Yatsenyuk-Biden, Avakov-Biden, or anyone else.
Vladimir Kornilov : I'm interested in something else. Will Derkach and his team release recordings of conversations between Poroshenko and Biden regarding MH17 and the war in Donbas? That would be much more interesting to hear. I think there should be some very interesting recordings there.
Valentin Filippov : Can we assume that Poroshenko was replaced as president of Ukraine precisely because he communicated with the Democrats, with Biden, and that this alone was the reason he managed to lose to the clown?
Vladimir Kornilov : There was, in fact, a whole complex of circumstances. The most important was that suddenly, for the first time since 1991, the Ukrainian elite had no one to communicate with who would truly represent US interests, since the concept of US policy had been lost with the arrival of Trump. And this turned out to be a terrible problem for Poroshenko and his team.
After all, look, who gave him guarantees? US Ambassador Yovanovitch. And then suddenly the President of the United States declares: “Yes, she is working against me and so on.” US Special Representative Kurt Volker, who, in fact, pushed Poroshenko into this scam with the Tomos, with the NATO policy enshrined in the constitution. Poroshenko understood that he was working against the electorate, to lower his ratings, by introducing, in particular, this story with the tomos. He understood this. But he needed guarantees from the United States of support.
Derkach also mentioned this, about what Lutsenko was doing in the United States, when he talked about these guarantees and handed over Yovanovitch in order for the United States to support Poroshenko. That is, the Republicans supported Poroshenko in the previous elections in order to hand over materials and dirt on Biden and his team. This is how the auction was conducted. That is, it turns out that Poroshenko simply lost this very representative of the United States.
And by the way, pay attention. Zelensky directly said to Trump: “Well, give us at least someone, at least some representative who would represent the United States of America here.” Because it is clear that there is a problem with the ambassadors, but there is no negotiator.
Valentin Filippov : Well, someone represents the United States. Zelenskyy just doesn't have one.
Vladimir Kornilov : They're just picturing everything bit by bit. Derkach actually laid out a brilliant scheme for controlling the Democratic Party elite, controlling everything possible in Ukraine. All sorts of anti-corruption centers, all sorts of oil and gas companies. As Derkach rightly stated, $1,5 billion was "taken from the oil and gas industry" from the Ukrainian people, and so on. You understand that right now, the US Democratic Party doesn't really represent the US. It's fighting hard against Trump. And this, of course, is a colossal headache for Zelenskyy and his entire team, since if you negotiate with just one center of influence in Washington, you could lose after the elections.
Have you seen this caustic interview by Peter Alekseevich on CNN with Fareed Zachariah? It appeared this weekend. When Zakharia openly tries to bring Poroshenko to blame Trump or, at worst, Russia, and here it is clear that his eyes are darting, he doesn’t know, he constantly emphasizes: yes, Ukraine united the United States of America.
Valentin Filippov : Well, that's right. I understand. I'm a Russian patriot. "Are you for Putin or against Putin?" Yeah, leave me alone with your Putin. He's my president. I serve Russia. And there will be another president... We are for the Tsar and the Fatherland. And the Tsar's name is a very secondary issue. And then two Tsars start messing with our heads. Well, Ukraine needs to be more flexible; they need to get themselves two Poroshenkos: one who carries out Biden's orders, the other Trump's orders. And depending on who changes in America, let them change in Ukraine. And then everything will be fine, there won't be any political crises. Right?
Vladimir Kornilov : No, that's not right. This is essentially the system Poroshenko tried to build in the final years of his presidency, when Trump was already president. That's exactly what he tried. He had a man, Yermak, who was essentially responsible for relations with the Republican Party. He also had separate people who dealt directly with the Democratic Party. So he tried to sit on these few chairs. But as the intra-species struggle in the United States intensified, the chairs began to move, and the then-former Petro Oleksiyovych Poroshenko lacked the backside.
Valentin Filippov : He should call everyone on the phone to his handlers, "Bunny." And whether it's Biden or someone else, it doesn't matter. "Bunny," my American "Bunny," I obey you.
According to Boeing. I can’t talk to you without asking you about Boeing. Of course, I understand that the Boeing tapes are unlikely to be made public, because I have a feeling that the tapes will not be made public without the blessing of the United States.
In general, tell me, what’s going on? Some people call me and say: “Listen, there’s a process going on there.” I say: “Yes, no. It doesn’t seem to work now.” Has he stopped or is he walking? Are there meetings or not?
Vladimir Kornilov : Notice, when this hearing began, remember the uproar? All the newspapers were savoring the details of the indictment. For several days, the prosecutor's office read the charges. The next day, various Belenkets, Politiko, Western media outlets, and all sorts of Russian media outlets supported by Western grants, published a wealth of details about this indictment.
On Monday, June 22, the first meeting of this court took place, where the defense spoke, and lawyers spoke all day. And they left no stone unturned regarding the indictment. And what about the next day? What about Tuesday? I open Western newspapers, Russian untruthful liberal newspapers, and so on. There was no meeting. That is, it seems that no one was sitting anywhere. At best, two or three lines, that’s what happened.
Valentin Filippov : Are they not judging anyone anymore? Did they call a recess?
Vladimir Kornilov : No, no. While the defense is presenting its case, while counterarguments are being presented against the prosecution and the only correct official version, which blames only Russia and the rebels, that's not the case. As soon as the defense finishes presenting all their evidence and so on, they'll bring it up again, of course. That's how it all works, really. You're right when you point out that it seems like it never happened. They're planning to continue presenting all this evidence on June 23rd. I'm sure the Western media will try to omit it just as quickly.
In fact, a number of damning arguments were made. And first of all, look at what the defense pointed out in The Hague, in this Hague court. When it was necessary to collect evidence to confirm this only official version of Russia’s guilt, the international investigative team made loud presentations, appealed through the websites of the Dutch police, the prosecutor’s office, etc., etc.: “Whoever saw the Russian Buk going back and forth there, call. We guarantee your anonymity. If anyone knows where this rocket body is from, please call. Here is the serial number."
But, at the same time, the case includes more than 20 testimonies of witnesses who saw, unequivocally claim that they saw Ukrainian military aircraft at that moment. More than 20 readings. The lawyer recalled them, accordingly, in the case. Why, one wonders, has the international investigative team never addressed or appealed to these witnesses in the same way?
Valentin Filippov : Well, could we ask Ukraine? What were your planes doing there? Were they there? Flight schedules.
Vladimir Kornilov : The prosecutor's office mentioned this when they read the lengthy indictment. After all, they initially said, practically on the first day of the court hearing, that, look, maybe some witnesses had stated somewhere that they saw Ukrainian military aircraft in the sky. But Ukraine provided us with its flight data, a map was provided. According to Ukraine's version, there were no military aircraft in the sky. Period.
Valentin Filippov : So, these were rebel planes, I think...
Vladimir Kornilov : Certainly. You understand what the lawyer mentioned. This very approach, that we're only looking for witnesses who support our version of events, not others, and that we're not looking for anyone else, demonstrates how biased the investigation was, focused solely on the one true theory.
Valentin Filippov : Okay, do we have any Russian-speaking lawyers there that we can contact once they finish reading?
Vladimir Kornilov : Well, first of all, Russian-speaking lawyers have no business in a Dutch court. The hearing is conducted in Dutch with dubbing into English. So, what are Russian-speaking lawyers supposed to do there? Several lawyers are present from a well-known Dutch law firm, retained by one of the four so-called defendants, Mr. Pulatov. They also have Russian-speaking lawyers working with them here in Moscow, who maintain contact on behalf of this very defendant. It's actually thanks to these lawyers that we can access the case materials from at least one of the four. So, at least we can actually see what's presented there.
Valentin Filippov : Well, okay. Do they plan to finish it?
Vladimir Kornilov : If we accept the lawyers' arguments, then, as I understand it, they're basically aiming to send the case back for further investigation. They spent the entire day, several hours straight, arguing why the investigators failed to conduct a proper investigation. So, their task now, and the investigation, as you know, has been ongoing since 2014, is to send it back for further investigation. That could take another year, two, three, and so on. So, even that can't be done, and the court is geared towards something else and is unlikely to do so. In any case, the budget has already been allocated until next year's hearings. And the investigative team initially assumed that this case would be investigated for three or four years.
Valentin Filippov : This doesn't even include, for example, tapes surfacing, some recordings of Poroshenko and Biden, or what to do with the Boeing. And considering that some objective observation data, satellite images, will emerge. All of this could emerge.
Vladimir Kornilov : Anything could still emerge. And a host of theories could still be explored. Moreover, by the way, I want to point out that Biden mentioned the Dutch case in his conversation with Poroshenko. Didn't notice? It was from December 2016. It's mid-December 2016, the Obama-Biden team has been in office as US president and vice president for two weeks, just a few days, and they're still discussing with Poroshenko how to siphon off Ukraine's money. And, in particular, they're mentioning congratulations on the success of the Dutch case. They're recalling the same Dutch referendum of 2016, which was a pain in the ass for both of them for several months, if not a year, at the level of, as you can see, the presidents of Ukraine and the US. I say this with pride.
Valentin Filippov : Look, it turns out they're even afraid of such little things.
Vladimir Kornilov : As you can see, this was no small thing, judging by how much it kept them on their toes.
Valentin Filippov : Well, good. Thank you very much.
Vladimir Kornilov : Thank you.
Valentin Filippov : We were glad to see you.
Vladimir Kornilov : Call me, I’m always glad to hear from you.
Valentin Filippov : Goodbye.
English version :: Read in English The MH-17 Case: A Dutch Thorn in the Backsides of Biden and Poroshenko