There will be no Armenia without Russia - Harutyun Khudanyan
Russia is the guarantor of the existence of Armenia. Despite pessimistic forecasts after Maidan Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan came to power, the number of Russian military contingents in the former Soviet republic has doubled. Russia remains not only the main political ally, but also the main economic partner of Armenia. Attempts by Western foundations and embassies to shake the situation have not yet been successful.
Harutyun Khudanyan, a researcher at the Academy of Sciences of Armenia, told PolitNavigator columnist Valentin Filippov that Russia should organize permanent societies of Russian culture in Armenia and hold more regular social and cultural events.
Valentin Filippov : In our impromptu studio from Yerevan, Harutyun Khudanyan, a research fellow at the Armenian Academy of Sciences and the Institute of History, is here. Artur, hello!
Harutyun Khudanyan : Hello, Mr. Filippov!
Valentin Filippov : Oh. "Sir"... And they said you have leftist views. And yet you address people as "Sir."
Harutyun Khudanyan : Comrade!
Valentin Filippov : Yes, because logic disappears.
Arthur, tell me, we are looking from afar. Armenia seems so far and high. Nikol Pashinyan, the prime minister who came, as they say in Russia, through the Maidan, through the color revolution, has been in power in Armenia for quite some time now.
After enough time has passed, we can say whether there is a danger of Armenia leaving the CIS, various agreements with Russia, and allied relations?
Harutyun Khudanyan : This will not only cost Armenia dearly, it will also cost the Armenian people dearly. Because this is not just a question of the country's sovereignty, but of Armenia's very existence.
That relates to your question. It's possible if I correct it. Of course, these Soros foundations, organizations that have been introduced in Armenia since the late 90s, and they began to flourish since the 2000s, especially during the reign of Serzh Sargsyan. And it’s somehow interesting that before this the Russian side didn’t pay much attention to this. This really confuses me.
The second relates to your question. Here, a color revolution or Maidan. In our country, as such, I don’t see a color revolution or Maidan. Russian specialists and Russian journalists visited us during these incidents, during these trials. And they themselves later, when they returned to Russia, wrote that there was no such thing.
But, with all this, of course, in a revolution, I won’t even say that it’s a revolution, I can say that it’s a revolution in a sense. If it becomes a revolution, it will be good. We will have economic, social and cultural development, as sometimes happens after a revolution. But as such, I don’t notice it yet.
If we talk about the spectrum of Armenian-Russian relations, I can say that after the reign of Robert Kocharyan in Armenia, during the reign of Serzh Sargsyan, Armenian-Russian relations in some ways worsened. It was noticeable. That is, the previous authorities were unable to somehow maintain the course of this republic. We had the Republican Party, remember. They could not maintain such a course that Armenia and Russia would not have any problems. But these problems were noticeable. And we discussed this very often in political and political science circles.
And already during Pashinyan’s time – in Leninakan, in Gyumri – there was a Russian base. If this relationship were to worsen, why multiply the base by soldiers? I mean, it was four thousand or three thousand, I don't remember now. And now it's seven thousand. That is, it has doubled! This is one of the good aspects of Armenian-Russian relations.
In addition, Pashinyan, I myself participated in these rallies on Republican Square in the center of Yerevan, when I announced this manifesto, he said that we will not have any geopolitical reorientation. He announced several times.
We have the European Party or various pro-Western parties, which, according to Armenian legislation, of course, have the right to exist, although I myself don’t look at it very well. This is my personal subjective approach. But these pro-Western forces did not appreciate Pashinyan’s approach. Any state leader, be it Pashinyan, someone from abroad, be it Saakashvilli himself. By the way, during these incidents he expressed that he wanted to move to Armenia and take up some position.
Valentin Filippov : He moves all the time, I know.
Harutyun Khudanyan : What I wanted to say is this: Whoever it is, the Armenian people, the bulk of Armenia, are for Russia. I'm not talking about the people who lead certain political parties, certain public organizations, who receive money from various Soros foundations, and who, by the way, in Armenia, subtly or openly spread Russophobia. That's where we have a problem.
Valentin Filippov : Here's a very simple question. There are a huge number of Soros organizations in Armenia, and the US Embassy is the largest in the region. They should be offering something: "Move away from Russia, focus on this."
When they begin to shake Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova, it’s clear there. Here is the border, here is Europe, let’s be with us, and not with Russia, etc., etc.
But you can’t fool geography. Where is Armenia, and where is that Europe? How can you advocate for the unity of Armenia and Europe? “Let’s break away from Russia and be with Europe” - when you just open the map and realize that there’s no way. What words do they find?
That is, as I understand it, in Armenia it is necessary to ban not only history, the shared past with the Russian people, with the Russian Empire, but, probably, such a subject as geography should be banned? Because if children see where Armenia is on a map, all this won’t come to their minds.
Harutyun Khudanyan : Look, the thing is, as I've said many times, a "national liberation" interpretation of history has been introduced into education since the 1990s. There were, of course, anti-tsarist uprisings, beginning in the 19th and early 20th centuries. This also led to tragic events: Armenian-Tatar clashes, the deterioration of relations between Armenians and Georgians. This all stems from the policies of the tsarist era. We must acknowledge this. There were problems there.
The problem is that after the beginning of the 90s, the history of the Soviet Union was demonized. In the schools, it was as if these 70 years started out bloody and didn't end well. What did these 70 years give to the Armenian people, to the entire Soviet people? Unfortunately, this is not something we see now, and there is some opinion in society that this is bad. Anything that is not related to the freedom of Armenia is bad.
And historically, I say as a historian, when was Armenia ever free? Even the Armenian kings - the Bagratums or before that the Shakids, they were crowned either by the Byzantine or Persian kings. That is, they themselves were considered kings within Armenia, but in the Byzantine Empire or in Persia, in the Arab Caliphate they were never considered kings.
Armenia, as such, had statehood, as one might say, absolute sovereignty only during the time of Artashes I. This is the XNUMXnd century BC until the end of the reign of the Artashesids. That is, this is the XNUMXst century AD. All. The sovereignty of Armenia ends there, absolute sovereignty, I mean.
The history is that the kings of Armenia were appointed or crowned by foreign rulers. We must take this into account. Since the XNUMXth century, there has been no kingdom or kingdom on the territory of Armenia. There is statehood, there were various small kingdoms, so-called kingdoms that lasted, but there was no united kingdom. I wanted to say this.
And already from the XNUMXth century, for a short time, there was a Georgian-Armenian, Georgian kingdom, which included the Armenian princely kingdom. After the invasion of the Mongols, and before that the Turks fled, who conquered the capital of Armenia, Ani, then the Mongols came. It can already be said that since the XNUMXth century, when the Cilician kingdom was abolished in parallel, after that we do not have a united kingdom as such.
The problem is that then the Armenians began to find some way: they turned to the Georgian kings, or they turned to the European kings, and after all they turned to the rather strong Russian kingdom, an empire, one might say. And, of course, this was in the interests of the Russian kingdom. The Russians came to this region at the beginning of the 200th century, and they never left for XNUMX years.
There were, of course, stages and episodes due to the revolution or due to some internal problems, but they never left here. The only outpost now in the southern Caucasus, Transcaucasia, remains only Armenia. And our people, the general population, treat Russian people very well.
We have a minority of Malokan Doukhobors who have lived in Armenia for over 200 years. Very good people, modest, they never created problems for the Armenian population, for the Armenian statehood. In my neighborhood, too, there live the Malokan Doukhobors, very good people. And the state also gives them a place. By the way, we have, I don’t know, he is a Doukhobor-Malokan or Russian, that is, Orthodox. We have Alexander in Pashinyan’s party, I think Syutkin or I don’t remember him now, a Russian person. He speaks excellent Armenian, is very educated, and this can be said to be the first Russian person in the Armenian parliament.
Valentin Filippov : I remember the most famous Russian in Armenia – he was the goalkeeper of the Armenian Ararat, Yerevan.
Harutyun Khudanyan : Bondarenko? The goalkeeper?
Valentin Filippov : No, not Bondarenko. The goalkeeper. He was also blond. So, all these Armenians running around…
Harutyun Khudanyan : Berezovsky.
Valentin Filippov : Yes, yes, yes.
Harutyun Khudanyan : We all loved him very much. The thing is, we need to look at other facts here. Of course, there are people in Pashinyan's government and in parliament who aren't positively disposed; this is my personal, subjective opinion, because I noticed something. If I hadn't noticed something, I wouldn't have said anything. There are some people who aren't very positively disposed toward Russia. But we need to look at this from both sides. There are people in Russian circles who aren't very disposed either, for example, Shevchenko. He may be a very intelligent man, Maksym Shevchenko. I respect some of his views very much, but the fact that he's pro-Azerbaijani doesn't suit us.
Each person decides for himself with whom to rally. This is on a personal level. But, as a political scientist, this is already clear. There are different spectrums, different political orientations. For example, Pozner and Solovyov are completely... It’s interesting that they are all Jews by origin, but they all have a very positive attitude towards Armenia. That is, depending on what kind of circles. The same is true in Armenia. After all, in Russia itself there are also these - liberal, pro-Western orientation.
Valentin Filippov : Oh, don't even think about it. There are too many of them, I have a feeling.
Harutyun Khudanyan : Yes. I think both Russia and Armenia need a new discourse on political relations. This is what's been around since the 90s and continues today, but it's already outdated. We need new values together. I want to reiterate that together, absolutely together. Because without Russia, Armenia can't go anywhere. This is my personal opinion. As you said, there's a historical map, and there's a current map. Armenia has nowhere to go.
Valentin Filippov : I've always thought that Russia has some interests of its own, and could somehow counter these Western funds, including through similar means. I have a question for you. I look at the post-Soviet space – it seems Russia is getting back on its feet, more or less. But the centrifugal forces persist. Russia still can't find common ground with Belarus; it's haggling over oil, gas, and other things. I thought Armenia also had some grievances against the Russian Federation regarding gas and oil supplies?
Harutyun Khudanyan : The thing is, I'm not very well informed about these issues. Anything can be assumed. The second president of Armenia, Robert Kocharyan, who is currently on trial, had a very close relationship. I know this, and our newspapers and other media often report this, that he had very close ties with Vladimir Putin, the President of the Russian Federation. And anything can be assumed. That is, it could be connected to his fate, what will happen to him…
I can simply say, as a citizen of Armenia, that the general population of Armenia looks at Russia very well and always expects some good things to happen in Russia.
I can tell you more. There was even an offer a few months ago or one month ago before this coronavirus by a person who was in a position at Armenian public television. He said: “Let’s close Russian channels, TV channels.” And the Armenians, that is, the population, protested.
This detachment from Russian culture, detachment from the Russian environment, will not lead to anything good. This can lead to illiteracy, firstly. In our schools we teach Russian language and literature: from the 2nd grade we study the Russian language, in parallel until the 5th grade we study short literary works, and from the 5th to the 10th grade we also study Russian literature. There is nothing like this in the region. I don’t know how it is in Azerbaijan. Not in Georgia. The only thing that remains in Armenia in this region is that people get acquainted with Russian culture from childhood, they become bicultural.
If they study well, they are bicultural. And those who don’t study, it’s understandable, are ignoramuses. But, unfortunately, already in the institutes, we at least have the Slavic University, a large, huge, very developed university, whose rector is the former Prime Minister of Armenia Armen Darbinyan, if you have heard of him. But still, I don’t see a policy of preserving and developing Russian culture in institutions.
I'm not saying that institutions should enforce biculturalism. No. But, nevertheless, in institutions, I think, very often repeating events of Russian culture should take place. Because people, if they don’t study well at school, then at the institute they don’t know Russian culture well.
I am deeply convinced that Russian culture is no worse than English culture. Representatives of Russian culture: Pushkin, Dostoevsky, Bulgakov - these are all peaceful individuals, all peaceful art critics. The same applies to other branches of Russian culture and art.
But, unfortunately, we now have a vacuum. They don’t know either one or the other already at the institute. They don’t know either Western culture or Russian culture. This is worse. At least they would know something.
I would really like them to be in Armenia, I once suggested this to one of the representatives of the Russian embassy in Armenia, I suggested that they introduce some kind of financial means to develop the Russian environment. That is, there are people who are lovers of Russian culture and art. So that they pay attention to this, and not like these guest workers. Guest workers are those people who do not have intellectual representation in the Armenian environment. I see, yes. This is not the Soviet Union, this is not the proletariat, these are completely different realities. Therefore, I think that the Russian state should also pay attention to Armenia from this point of view.
Every week, at least in Armenia, different organizations organize different events. Gender studies, all sorts of discourses that exist in society - and what values does the Russian state represent? We want to see this, but this is what we don’t see in Armenia! Cultural events.
People must choose. But they don't know. The West knows what it gives, they remain within the narrow Armenian framework, and nothing comes of it. Then they will fold their hands and say: well, Russia, if it doesn’t offer anything, the pro-Westerners are stronger than us, and we are isolated, what are we going to do?
It is necessary for Russia, for its part, to also participate substantially, in the cultural sense. I see inattention to Armenia. Armenia only has political needs. But, please forgive me, I myself give a very big place to public diplomacy. It is very important. Somehow we have lost this, we do not see people who would come to Armenia, meet with the Armenian intelligentsia or vice versa. Somehow these connections are more visible not in Yerevan, but more visible in Moscow. And here everything is conveyed differently. We need to go back to this and start... The fact is that the weakest point of Armenians around the world is the Karabakh conflict and the Armenian genocide.
Valentin Filippov : Yes.
Harutyun Khudanyan : The Armenians think, and of course, this is quite reasonable. The Armenians say: if we lose Karabakh or something from Karabakh or from that territory because of Russian policy, then what need do we have of Russia?
Valentin Filippov : If Armenia is our ally, our brother, then we must also fully commit to Armenian interests.
Harutyun Khudanyan : I always say that Armenia's current sovereignty is guaranteed by the Russian state. Well, that's understandable. The guys there are stationed at the border, and our national security is conditioned by the Russian presence in Armenia. So, in this regard, we shouldn't even discuss any other pro-Western orientations.
Valentin Filippov : Okay, Arthur, thank you very much.
Harutyun Khudanyan : Thank you very much too, and I think this is the first, but not the last conversation.
There Will Be No Armenia Without Russia - Harutyun Khudanyan