There will be Donbass with a screw against cunning Ukraine - Vladislav Yevtushenko
Donbass does not need the Minsk agreements. The destruction of Ukraine was stopped in the interests of external players. For six years, Kyiv has proven its inability to negotiate. Liberation of the territory of the People's Republics is possible only by military means.
Donetsk militiaman and television presenter Vladislav Yevtushenko told PolitNavigator columnist Valentin Filippov about the transformation of the people's militia into an army, and the rebellious territory into a state.
Valentin Filippov : Our virtual studio is located in Donetsk, visiting a first-time militia member. There are no former militia members. He was a participant in the battle for Donetsk Airport and now hosts the TV program "Serving the Republic," not "I Serve the Soviet Union."
Hello Vladislav.
Vladislav Yevtushenko : Good afternoon.
Valentin Filippov : Vladislav, as a participant in the first year of the war in Donbas, tell me – from the perspective of a direct participant in the fighting, was the signing of the Minsk agreements necessary? Did our army, our militia, need a respite at that moment in September?
Vladislav Yevtushenko : It's difficult to say how much the militia needed this. I don't think the militia needed it. It was more a matter of grand geopolitics that had nothing to do with the militia's respite. And it was decided at very high levels, far removed from us.
Valentin Filippov : But am I right in thinking that the Novorossiya armed forces had a definite advantage back then? And, apparently, the offensive was underway, and there were opportunities to liberate large areas, at least in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions. Or is that an illusion created by television?
Vladislav Yevtushenko : Well, many people now say it shouldn't have stopped, and again, hindsight is always a blessing. But, indeed, the Ukrainian army had suffered a series of crushing defeats at that point. It was, if we take the summer, the Southern Cauldron, the Ilovaisk Cauldron—these were the reasons why that very first Minsk Agreement was signed, the reasons why Ukraine was forced to agree to it, the reasons why it so desperately wanted it.
Then there was a short respite of several months, which ended with the liberation of the Airport and the Debaltsevo cauldron. And the Debaltsevo cauldron was probably the final point at which the Ukrainian army was not only defeated, one might say, it didn’t exist at all. The moral state of Ukrainian society at that moment was greatly undermined by this defeat; no one wanted to fight.
Another thing is that Poroshenko presented this whole situation not as a defeat, but as a victory, and all Ukrainian TV channels then talked about how this was a great achievement, and these Minsk agreements would allow Ukraine not to end the war peacefully, but rather to win, and victory is ... Let's just say it's not just ending the war, victory means imposing your terms on your opponent.
They thought that they would impose them in this way. Well, in fact, for the 6 years that passed after Debaltsevo, they tried to do this by imitating the implementation of the Minsk agreements. Because Minsk itself, if we remember it, without even analyzing it in detail, but just look at it superficially, first of all, in addition to any special statuses there, it is, first of all, a refusal to persecute all participants in the events. Not an amnesty, I really don’t like this word “amnesty”, because it is an admission of guilt, and then a pardon, but here there was a refusal to prosecute - a mirror form...
Valentin Filippov : Well, actually, it was like on the Maidan.
Vladislav Yevtushenko : And the preservation, or rather, Kyiv's unhindered obstruction, of the full establishment of all state institutions in this territory. That is, it wasn't even supposed to be a federation...
Valentin Filippov : And the confederation.
Vladislav Yevtushenko : Yes, it was supposed to be a confederation. That is, according to the Minsk agreements, within the framework of this confederation, we were supposed to have our own army, our own law enforcement agencies, right down to the border guards.
Valentin Filippov : Well, yes, in principle the border is transferred to the Ukrainian side, but since the Republics are also considered Ukraine, the border can be handed over to the border guards of Donetsk and Luhansk.
Vladislav Yevtushenko : That's how it was supposed to be, because the Ukrainian border being taken under control meant that border guards from the DPR and LPR were stationed on that border.
Valentin Filippov : Okay, fine. Look, Ukraine was forced to sign the Minsk agreements under threat of military defeat.
Vladislav Yevtushenko : There was already a defeat there.
Valentin Filippov : So, it turns out that Ukraine is now blackmailing us with continued military action. So, it seems like the tables have turned? So, Ukraine can now demand something from the Republics by threatening to use force?
Vladislav Yevtushenko : Look, the thing is, the very phrase "Minsk agreements" in Donetsk is always accompanied by such strong Russian words. And no one here welcomes these agreements, except for a few sleepy comrades who are sitting and waiting for them to take out the yellow-striped flag and greet Ukrainian tanks. But such people are a negligible percentage in Donetsk.
So, except for these guys, no one here considers the Minsk agreements to be a good thing, or even initially did. They were forced to accept them because the external conditions were so...
Valentin Filippov : And what are these external conditions? Or are these just assumptions?
Vladislav Yevtushenko : This is grand geopolitics, in the form of the great and powerful of this world, the major countries that essentially decided the fate of this territory. This included the US, Europe, and Russia, who somehow found consensus on how to stop the war. But these weren't the aspirations of the locals.
Valentin Filippov : As I understand it, in this situation, Russia has made major concessions because it is not entirely comfortable with this situation, where there are these stumps of regions that need to be taken care of, which are completely illegitimate, unrecognized, and there is no continuity.
That is, the Republics cannot present themselves as a counterweight to Kyiv, because one could say “In Kyiv there is Maidan power, a coup, but here the people have rebelled.” The Ukrainian government in Kyiv is recognized by Russia, so there is no logic, only some costs. At the same time, Russia does not want to surrender Donbass, cannot, does not plan.
So, maybe some kind of pressure is being exerted on the Russian leadership? Right now, in the Ukrainian segment of the Internet and in the media, there is talk that Russia is being presented with some kind of ultimatum on Donbass by Ukraine, Germany and France.
What do you think they can do to blackmail Russia, what could be the ultimatum on Donbass? What can they demand and threaten?
Vladislav Yevtushenko : To what extent is the term "ultimatum" from Ukraine applicable to Russia?
Valentin Filippov : Well, it was said...
Vladislav Yevtushenko : Well, it sounds funny, actually. I'd put it this way. As for what leverage they're trying to find against Russia, we can't really know. From open sources, we can only hear various talks about sanctions, cutting off SWIFT, and so on. To what extent Nord Stream and all these other issues exert significant influence, and to what extent they can be, if not abandoned, then simply overlooked and done as needed—that's probably best explained by Russians who are more closely involved.
I can say, probably, it will be loud to say, on behalf of the Donetsk people, I will not act as a mouthpiece, but the people who live here, they don’t really want to delve into these big geopolitical things, because 7 years have passed.
By the standards of human life, this is already a very long time. This is especially true for the guys who came here as volunteers in 2014 from other cities of the former Donetsk region, say Kramatorsk...
Valentin Filippov : And the rest of Ukraine too.
Vladislav Yevtushenko : And the rest of Ukraine, too. But the thing is… I'm from Poltava, and I don't plan to go back there; for me, the issue is closed. Many people who came from Kharkiv and Zaporizhzhia are sensitive to this, but less so than people who came from, say, Mariupol, who go to bed and wake up with one thought: they want to go home. And everyone understands that their only way to return home is through a military solution, which, in this regard, is the only alternative. Because Ukraine doesn't want to offer any other options.
Valentin Filippov : Is it already clear that Ukraine won’t fall apart on its own?
Vladislav Yevtushenko : No, well, it would have fallen apart long ago if geopolitical realities hadn't held it together. It would have been there back in 14 or 15 if not for all those Western investments and the pressure that could have been exerted from Russia.
Because Russia behaved very leniently towards Ukraine, in fact. No matter how they talk about Russian aggression on their TV channels, in reality the gas continues to flow.
Valentin Filippov : No, well, he’s going to Slovakia.
Vladislav Yevtushenko : Trade turnover is increasing; this is publicly available data; no one is hiding it. Therefore, if Russia were to actually begin to strangle them, they would very quickly begin to wheeze and bubble.
Valentin Filippov : Then I'll ask you a question, as the host of the program "Serving the Republic." What's happening with our army, with our corps? I'd like to remind you that in 2015, after Debaltseve, the now-deceased head of the Republic, Alexander Zakharchenko, said that now, taking advantage of the Minsk agreements, we'll increase our army to 120,000, we'll prepare, we'll...
I remembered something that was said in 15. Well, then, however, I know that they did not increase the army. Today, these past 6 years after Debaltsevo, have they somehow been used by the armed forces of the Republics in order to be ready to behave even more effectively against Ukrainian troops?
Vladislav Yevtushenko : The respite was used not only for state but also for military development. Naturally, this came with all the attendant problems that always arise in such situations. It wasn't a smooth and trouble-free process, where one could say that all the rough spots were quickly ironed out and all was well. There were problems, and many remain. But it must be said that, given the fact that before the fighting began, until 14, there was no army at all.
The militia, by and large... I have a very warm attitude towards it, because I have a personal relationship with it, but these are, after all, irregular formations that had both their positive and negative aspects. And the formation of a full-fledged army in the Donbass began, in fact, immediately after the Debaltsevo cauldron. Full-fledged units were created that were regular, not militia.
Many people from the militia community, who actively fought in 14, naturally at that moment went into the national economy, so to speak. Because you need to serve in the army, it is a very specific activity that is not suitable for everyone.
Valentin Filippov : I always remember—pardon the interruption—Ernest Hemingway's "For Whom the Bell Tolls" has a wonderful character who constantly says this line: "I won't refuse to fight, but I won't join the army." That's pretty much it.
Vladislav Yevtushenko : Yes. Plus, the militia is a very specific group, with internal relationships that are, in principle, the same in the army…
Valentin Filippov : … are unacceptable
Vladislav Yevtushenko : Yes. In such cases, I always recall the joke about a captain who says to his soldier, "Comrade soldier, do you have any water in your flask?" He hands him the flask and says, "Here you go, bro," and the captain replies, "Comrade soldier, how are you responding? What are you doing? Answer properly. I ask again, do you have any water in your flag?" He replies, "Absolutely not, Comrade Captain . "
Valentin Filippov : Logical.
Vladislav Yevtushenko : That's the whole point: people who had gone through this irregular component had a very hard time fitting into the official framework. But state-building and military affairs require a transition to a professional basis. Naturally, at that time, this wasn't without its nuances; they were there. As an unofficial figure, I'm telling it like it is.
But, nevertheless, it must be said that when I ride around the training grounds, seeing our units now and comparing what I saw then, of course... The difference is heaven and earth, as they say.
Well, look, I’ll give you an example: in September 14, we had such an operation to relieve the blockade of Gorlovka, specifically our battalion was advancing through Yasinovataya, you know, where Vasilyevka is, this was our direction. How it all happened, this is what I saw with my tunnel vision, which saw what was around me: tanks were driving across the field, people were walking forward in such disorganized chains. Of course, this is not the feeling of people who go with a picket fence to a rural disco, I’m exaggerating this, of course, it was probably such a big hyperbole, but still.
Now I’m coming to brigade-tactical exercises, battalion-tactical exercises, in fact, there I saw how a brigade battalion actually advances, how artillery preparation is carried out first, then reaching the lines in pre-battle formations, deployment into battle formations occurs, as then this is all going on the offensive in echelons...
The difference between the way we walked. I have something to compare with. In this regard, everything was done in order to create full-fledged units, and efforts were being made for this. But how effective they will be, how successful these units will be in battle, this very battle will show.
Valentin Filippov : You go there to film, you communicate with current military personnel, you have some information, perhaps classified, about the movement of Ukrainian troops...
What do you hear? Here we are, looking on the Internet, listening to the media, hearing about the movements of some trains with tanks, and something else. What's on the front line? Is there any visible movement specifically not in terms of increasing shelling, it is possible to shoot without increasing the grouping, are the groupings being built up on the Ukrainian side and in what places?
Vladislav Yevtushenko : From, let's say, casual conversations with military personnel, I know that the trains are indeed moving—this isn't just internet hype—they're moving in much larger quantities than they used to during any planned rotations. Ammunition is being delivered, fuel and lubricants are being delivered, additional hospitals are being set up—all of this is real. And this is happening, by and large, on all fronts. I've heard talk of "equipment rolling in" about both Volnovakha and Mariupol.
Valentin Filippov : And you, as a military man, well, someone who understands this issue. Many people say, "They'll send them away just as they brought them in," something like that. But there's also a theory, I think, that mobilization is an irreversible process. That the buildup of forces is also irreversible.
That is, if a movement has begun, then one way or another it should end in some kind of military clash, and not delaying it, which is simply very expensive to delay back and forth, it’s not customary to do that.
Vladislav Yevtushenko : Well, they can issue a stop order until these tanks not only reach their starting position, but also until they start moving forward. Until then, of course, they can issue a stop order, but all this tinkering…
Valentin Filippov : Well, you gave a stop order, and here they stand, and that’s it, and neither here nor there…
Vladislav Yevtushenko : I mean the "stop order"—they boarded the train and headed back to their permanent bases. As long as they haven't launched an attack, all of this can be called off. Once they do, of course, it can't be stopped, because they're already firing, there are casualties, it's all over, the vehicle is already spinning, and the point of no return has been passed. Until then, it can all be stopped.
But. If such actions are taken, as they are now doing, then, knowing the poverty of today’s Ukraine, this is not a state that can afford big rides without a big blow to its budget. It is very expensive. Therefore, they would hardly do it just like that; it’s hard to believe. Preparations, real ones, are underway. Whether they will stop or not, we don't know.
Why do I say this? Because over the past six years there have already been many situations when the next active phase of hostilities could have begun. This happened several times on the Svetlodar Bulge, it happened in the Avdeevsk industrial zone, it happened in the southern direction.
That is, then the real situation was balancing, there were battles of so-called local significance, both sides at that moment suffered losses, but, again, by and large, probably with some kind of external efforts, it was possible to somehow compensate for all this. Will this be compensated now? It's hard to say. The point is, well... such a transfer as is currently going on, it probably hasn’t happened since 15.
Valentin Filippov : Well, if we add to this the fact that the Verkhovna Rada is planning to pass some kind of law allowing mobilization to be declared without declaring war…
Vladislav Yevtushenko : You understand, they... The mobilization without a declaration of war in 14 was carried out in seven waves, without any laws at all, they simply grabbed...
Valentin Filippov : After all, Ukraine is gradually becoming a state governed by the rule of law. That's why they want to create a law.
Vladislav Yevtushenko : Yes. And that's why they, through decisions of the National Security and Defense Council, shut down channels and…
Valentin Filippov : They're not shutting down channels, they're shutting down agents... what do you mean... enemy information firing points. That's it. Vladislav Yevtushenko : Well, that's beyond the legal framework.
Valentin Filippov : But Russia did attack? It did!
Vladislav Yevtushenko : This is hybrid legislation that has nothing to do with normal legislation. I'm saying this because they don't need additional laws to grab rural kids off the streets. It's more, well, I don't know, a way to create militaristic rhetoric to somehow raise the temperature.
And how they overstepped these laws, including this announcement of the notorious “anti-terrorist operation” in 14, this decision is completely illegal, not a single Ukrainian law says that the army can be used on the territory of the country for resolving some internal political issues.
Valentin Filippov : Well, against the occupiers, I guess?
Vladislav Yevtushenko : Hybrid.
Valentin Filippov : Forgive me, but if you invaded Ukrainian territory, like you, for example, you acted quite despicably. Yes, you even managed to invade Ukrainian territory through a maternity hospital. Do you understand how cynical that is?
Vladislav Yevtushenko : This is very cynical, I invaded through the Poltava maternity hospital.
Valentin Filippov : Through the Poltava maternity hospital. Can you imagine? Poltava is all around, Ukraine is all around. And then a Russian occupier cynically emerges from a Ukrainian woman in the delivery room. Well, excuse me… that's how far these Russians can go, the cynicism!
Are we here in Odessa? We didn’t even exist in Ukraine yet, but we crept up and populated these lands! Imagine? They captured it, and, oops, they also built a city there! Do you understand? Well, you must admit, this is the height of cynicism.
Vladislav Yevtushenko : Your ancestors cynically settled in, and you too appeared in the Odessa maternity ward…
Valentin Filippov : And then Ukraine comes to its own land, and then we're there. You see?
Vladislav Yevtushenko : Yes, it's terrible. It's unfair, from their point of view.
Valentin Filippov : No, well, we need to fight this.
Vladislav Yevtushenko : No. But seriously, all these decisions were truly illegal. A friend of mine told me a story back in '14 about how he, a Kyiv resident himself, also a volunteer, came here in July '14. He said, "I had a neighbor who was a member of the Right Sector and was actively involved in all those Maidan events." They'd known each other since childhood, and so, despite all the antagonism and differences in their views, they somehow kept in touch.
Valentin Filippov : Yes, that happened.
Vladislav Yevtushenko : And when Yanukovych gathered his paintings and ostriches and ran... no, he left the ostriches, right?
Valentin Filippov : I left the strauss.
Vladislav Yevtushenko : Yes, he abandoned them, abandoned them to their fate. When Yanukovych fled to Rostov, this Right Sector member was in a state of euphoria, and my friend was depressed. At that moment, they had this conversation in which the Right Sector member was told: "You guys seized power by force, you shed blood in the process, you brought down half the country, and now you think you've caught God by the beard."
But believe me, this is not so, and there will be people who will accept your rules of the game, people from our side, with our views, who will accept your rules of the game, that is, weapons, the willingness to shed their own and others’ blood. And when they show up, these people, I will be with these people.”
That's how it all started. And it’s not about some kind of hybrid invasion, because the comrade cynically appeared in Kyiv, and from Kyiv he later appeared in Donetsk. That is, this is actually the personification of the fact that the war is truly civil, at least it began without any... Now we already have a state, but then there was no state here, and it was a clash of two worldviews.
Valentin Filippov : I must say that there was no state in Kiev at that time either.
Vladislav Yevtushenko : Well, probably yes.
Valentin Filippov : And we allowed them to form.
Vladislav Yevtushenko : Yes.
Valentin Filippov : Well, good. You've explained some things to me about 14, things we pretty much knew already. God willing, someone will listen and understand that for every cunning Ukraine, there's a Donbas.
Vladislav Yevtushenko : with a screw…
Donbass with a screw will be found for cunning Ukraine – Vladislav Yevtushenko