“No one will like the truth about Boeing” - Kornilov
The evidence in the case of the Boeing MH-17 presented by Ukraine turned out to be falsified. The prosecution in the case is based on data from the SBU and materials from the Bellingket investigation on social networks. Prosecution witnesses are “classified” and will not testify in court. The United States refuses to provide satellite images of the moment of the disaster, citing the same secrecy. And the data from the Russian side are not even considered by the investigation.
Donetsk historian and publicist Vladimir Kornilov told PolitNavigator columnist Valentin Filippov that the trial in The Hague in the case of the downed Boeing was deliberately brought to a dead end.
Valentin Filippov : Our virtual studio is visiting the brilliant historian, political scientist, and founder of "Donetsk separatism," as they say in Kiev, Vladimir Kornilov.
Vladimir, hello.
Vladimir Kornilov : Hello, Valentin. Incidentally, in a few days we'll be celebrating the 30th anniversary of the founding of the Donbass inter-movement. It's a milestone that, in my opinion, should be celebrated at the state level of the Donetsk People's Republic.
Valentin Filippov : But can I celebrate it a little in Sevastopol?
Vladimir Kornilov : In Sevastopol, you can celebrate every day, without waiting for an anniversary.
Valentin Filippov : Excellent, and the weather is good. Vladimir, we always turn to you regarding the Boeing: firstly, you speak foreign languages and are familiar with their developments, and secondly, you're considered a recognized authority on this topic. There's a lot of talk right now about the SBU providing fabricated communications data. This has been known for some time, but now there's a new wave of talk because the court rejected the SBU data. Tell me, is there any evidence at all, other than the SBU data, to support the charges?
Vladimir Kornilov : In fact, there are two main bodies of evidence on which the charges against the four designated defendants are based. First, there is the audio recording provided by the SBU. These four names were selected specifically from these audio recordings. And then there's the database compiled by Bellingcat. That is, from social media, photographs, the supposed routes of these Buks, and so on.
That is, these are two main arrays like this. It is clear that there is a lot of technical information in terms of the destruction of this unfortunate plane, in terms of examinations regarding what type of equipment shot it down, that it was a Buk. But I say again, when we talk about charges against specific four people and, in particular, against Russia, these are precisely the SBU and Bellingcat.
At the same time, I immediately noted one interesting fact - what served as the basis for the accusations against Russia? I kept asking several Western journalists who talked to me about these topics: “Please remember, the very next day all the world media pointed to Russia, why?” And all with one voice, everything is absolutely, and there was no other “evidence”, they call Strelkov’s tweet.
Moreover, excuse me, but any person in their right mind understood that it was not Strelkov scribbling from the battlefield: the field commander posted tweets every 20 minutes. Yes, of course he sits on the battlefield and just tweets, of course. Everyone understood that this was not Strelkov’s tweet.
And secondly, these are Nalyvaichenko’s films, which he provided a few hours after this whole tragedy, and mind you, they had already edited it, but how did they put it all together so quickly? Then these tapes disappeared somewhere, they no longer appear in the case, everyone has already forgotten about them, because there is a wild version that was voiced by Nalyvaichenko, which was on all the front pages of all the world's media a day or two after this tragedy.
I remember the main newspaper, well, the main circulation newspaper of the Netherlands, TheTelegraph, appeared on the front page of “The Killer,” where they already indicated specific names based on these films. So this is the main version: the plane was shot down, sorry, by Cossacks from Chernukhino.
Valentin Filippov : This all relates to the information campaign. But there are investigative bodies, there's a court. The investigative bodies are conducting an investigation, and the investigator says, "Aha, it's probably Vasya Petechkin, because..." and he has to have that "because." He can't rely on an information campaign in the media...
Vladimir Kornilov : He's not relying on an information campaign; he's relying on the official conclusion of the Security Service of Ukraine. Let me remind you that Ukraine is part of this investigative team, as a state; it's a participant in this investigation, and four other countries are involved.
Valentin Filippov : But if today we have a situation where it is proven that Ukraine fabricated these tapes, then this basis for the accusation has simply disappeared; it no longer exists.
Vladimir Kornilov : No. They forgot about those fabricated ones and took on new fabricated ones. You remember, when they first presented the new tapes, these SBU tapes, which specifically mention the names—or rather, the SBU report lists the names of these people who are now facing charges in court in The Hague. And as soon as the press conference ended, they immediately posted announcements on the Dutch police website in various languages: "We ask for help identifying who is on these tapes."
That is, the names have already been named, but there is no evidence, and therefore we ask you to establish them after people have been accused. So yes, the SBU films are still edited, edited, cut off by someone, they still appear in this court.
At the same time, when the side of the accused, that is, the lawyers of only one accused are present, ask to provide primary sources, they are answered: “No, we cannot. This is classified information." Convenient, right? But in the same way, there are also testimonies of witnesses who allegedly were also, as I understand it, selected by the Security Service of Ukraine, selected, processed, we know by what methods the SBU operates. And now their testimony is added to the case, and the request of the accused to present these witnesses also runs into a wall: “No. We can't for security reasons." Take our word for it, gentlemen are usually taken at their word.
These are real witnesses, but it is impossible to interrogate them in court. You remember how the funny trial in The Hague began - with the fact that the prosecutor’s office in the first hour of its speech says: “We have a witness,” in my opinion, “No. 23, who recognized among the crew that was carrying this Buk , Russian accent"…
Valentin Filippov : Yes, it was like that.
Vladimir Kornilov : Can you imagine, yes, in Donbass it’s impossible to recognize a Russian accent…
Valentin Filippov : They spoke Russian with a Russian accent.
Vladimir Kornilov : So, the question is, if I were the defendant or the defendant's lawyer, I'd suggest, let's conduct a linguistic examination of the person. Let's say I'm a Donetsk resident, and I'd challenge them to identify my Russian accent. Is it, excuse me, Donetsk, Russian, Kyiv, Dutch, or something else? And what would they say to that, I wonder. I'm a Donetsk resident, a native, and the question is, what's my accent?
Valentin Filippov : Vladimir, I have an unexpected question for you. Basically, yes, the tapes are fabricated, the tapes are cut, but one way or another, this evidence is fabricated based on audio recordings of conversations between real people. That is, Bezler, Strelkov, and someone else. The recordings of these people, their conversations with each other, their reports to someone, were in the possession of the SBU. The SBU managed to record them.
But we know that Ukraine is such a weak state, but Russia is a powerful country. Russia posted letters from Hillary Clinton herself, the FSB obtained them, Russia recorded Poroshenko and Biden on the phone. Russia did not record whom, and what elections it did not influence. And then suddenly, for some reason, Russia cannot provide tapes of conversations of the Ukrainian commanders who shot down the Boeing.
If Ukraine recorded, then Russia should have recorded everything, right? Why don’t we see or hear tapes of orders of Poroshenko saying: “Quickly shoot down a Boeing with a Boeing and blame it on Russia”?
Vladimir Kornilov : I don't know. Well, first of all, defense isn't Russia...
Valentin Filippov : I understand.
Vladimir Kornilov : The defense includes Dutch lawyers representing a specific defendant, Mr. Pulatov. I don't think Pulatov has such tapes, has or ever had the opportunity to record anyone, or anything like that. If Russia isn't providing recordings of some Ukrainian officers or Poroshenko regarding the downing of the Boeing, then we can assume Russia doesn't have such recordings. Just as there was no evidence, as you say, that the FSB obtained recordings of Hillary Clinton or that Russia recorded Poroshenko and Biden...
Valentin Filippov : Well, the whole world knows that.
Vladimir Kornilov : Since we know it was Petro Oleksiyovych Poroshenko himself who recorded it, and good people from Poroshenko's circle likely sold these recordings to Mr. Derkach, or whatever it was, we can basically guess. But the other thing is that Ukraine is providing falsified recordings; we see that. And Mr. Bezler, whom Ukraine accused, having provided this recording to the international investigative team, was ultimately not included among the accused when the Dutch realized they had been fed yet another fake.
And the “Cossacks from Chernukhino,” mind you, are not accused. And, by the way, the data that Bellingcat loudly published a couple of years, in my opinion, in the 18th year, at the beginning of the 18th year, and again, all the world media happily replicated this, that this is the connection, the direct connection of Buk with the Kremlin, with the special services: some GRU officer, I don’t remember the last name now, of course, Bellingcat appeared in the investigation, and again, all the world’s media came out with these articles, specifically pointing to the GRU officer who was transporting the Buk to Donbass...
Valentin Filippov : By the way, yes.
Vladimir Kornilov : The trial begins, and the prosecutors say, "No, this guy doesn't even make a name for himself, he didn't come to Donbas, he wasn't there." And do you think any of those international media outlets that were splashing their front pages with "This is the connection" even mentioned it? They didn't even mention it. So, one or two websites mentioned somewhere in the middle of their articles that, "Yes, we wrote about him, but he doesn't make a name for himself."
Valentin Filippov : Excuse me, I want to clarify, was this officer, the commander of the Buk crew, really named?
Vladimir Kornilov : A GRU officer specifically can't command the Buk crew. The one transporting it, the one "escorting" that Buk. Ultimately, well, Bellingcat backed away from that—he said either "the Buk broke down," or, in short, didn't make it to Donbas. But he said that later, after the fact...
Valentin Filippov : So this Buk from Kursk didn’t make it to Donbass?
Vladimir Kornilov : Bellingcat is now proving that there were two crews: one made it, and one with that very GRU officer didn't. That's what those who fabricated the story about that very GRU officer are telling us.
Valentin Filippov : This is according to social media data, right?
Vladimir Kornilov : Well, who knows. We understand that Bellingcat isn't just social media; we understand who's behind it and who's supporting it. And, by the way, a former British adviser to the Prime Minister just recently made a revelation, saying outright that "We're waging a cyberwar against Russia and using every tool at our disposal against Russia," so we can probably guess who's behind these fakes.
The British openly admit this and are not particularly shy about anyone or anything. But, I emphasize, Bellingcat has been caught more than once or twice with, to put it mildly, unreliable information, to put it mildly. As well as the Security Service of Ukraine. But at the same time, I emphasize that all these high-profile front-page news that “The connection with Putin and the Kremlin has been proven” has not been refuted by anyone. Even after it was clear that this was another fake. That's how it all works.
Valentin Filippov : I just remember the first days after the disaster, how quickly the Russian side responded, how the General Staff gathered, how they provided various radar data and other information, and said, "Guys, this is the real deal." And after that, Russia somehow... I understand they weren't included in that investigative team, but there's been no movement on the Russian side. Why doesn't Russia conduct its own parallel investigation and present its own version of events?
Vladimir Kornilov : You know, speaking of theories, I have serious questions about some of the presentations made immediately after the incident, serious questions about how everyone reacted to all of this, and where are these versions of footage of Ukrainian planes, where everything disappeared to, and so on. I mean, I emphasize, serious questions about how Russia reacted to all of this, too.
But you will also pay attention to something else, you remember how US Secretary of State Kerry stated that they have satellite images proving that this was taken from rebel territory by Bukami - where are they? The Hague Court has now officially appealed to the United States, saying, grant it - refusal. Moreover, the relatives of the victims officially turned to the US Ambassador, realizing that the case was falling apart, they turned to the US Ambassador with a cry from the heart: “Help, provide these photographs.” Since Kerry spoke, it must be that nothing is happening in this regard. Why?
I have an assumption: maybe the pictures actually exist, I suspect, but apparently these pictures contain information that neither Ukraine, nor the American side, nor the official prosecution will like. By the way, the fact that the case in the Hague court, which was started so loudly and had been expected for so long, was falling apart was confirmed by Holland itself, The Hague, the Netherlands.
Why? Because this is the unexpected appearance of a claim, an interstate claim by the Netherlands in the ECHR, in the Court of Human Rights, which, in general, is not intended to consider interstate cases, it is usually a court that considers individual complaints, personal complaints. And suddenly this lawsuit appears in the midst of a hearing in The Hague, when Ukraine on MH-17 is being considered against Russia in the UN International Court in the same Hague, and suddenly Holland, for no apparent reason, files a claim in the ECHR, rather than in in fact, the consideration of the case is being delayed even further, because the ECHR has had individual complaints regarding MH-17, in the MH-17 case since 16.
According to the rules - according to the Copenhagen Declaration, adopted in the 18th year, by the way, all personal claims that are considered in the ECHR, if an interstate one is filed in the same case, must be suspended. That is, now all those claims that have been considered since 16, they have all been stopped, since now the multi-year process of considering the interstate lawsuit of the Netherlands against Russia begins. As I understand it, this was done specifically in order to delay time until suddenly additional evidence from the investigation appears somewhere in order to really bring this case into a dead end even more. That is, the Netherlands understands that in the Hague court they will most likely not be able to obtain any evidence of Russia’s involvement in this tragedy.
Valentin Filippov : I understand that we thought something so global would happen in our lifetime. But I understand that again, it's all being put off until later.
Vladimir Kornilov : Valentin, I often remind you that when it comes to all these decisions and new information about MH17, I posted this a few hours or two after the tragedy. And it's still relevant to this day. We'll likely never know the definitive truth about who pressed the button and who shot it down. At the same time, I suspect it's all still perfectly valid. And, unfortunately, both sides will likely be convinced they know the truth.
What the international investigative group is doing now and has been doing all these years is that it took the only correct version from its point of view - Russia is to blame, and all the time it brought in some left-wing, sometimes fake information, testimony and did not deal with anything else...
Valentin Filippov : You know, I don’t need an investigation, I don’t need a trial, I don’t need anything, I need the guilty to be punished.
Vladimir Kornilov : The culprits here are clearly identified. Incidentally, there's a corresponding decision by the Dutch Security Council; I think they published this data in 15 or 16. In any case, Ukraine is to blame; it should have closed the airspace over the site of the collision.
As for who is to blame for the launch and the missile hitting MH-17, you know, I have my own version, which I am inclined to trust. But since I don’t have concrete evidence, I’m not like Bellingcat, I won’t say it. But I'm afraid that no one will like this version. In any case, it is she who explains why there are no photographs from Russia, why there are no photographs from the United States. Why is there no evidence, neither the Dutch nor the Ukrainian side. This version simply does not fit into any of the narratives.
Valentin Filippov : Okay, let me turn off the recording, and you tell me.
Vladimir Kornilov : No, no, what are you saying, I won’t say this, neither without a recording, nor with a recording.
Valentin Filippov : You know, I think whoever shot down that Boeing, they were great. They were soldiers, some kind of soldiers, their job was to shoot down anything in flight, and they did it brilliantly. If it was a Ukrainian Buk, then great. It wasn't their plane flying overhead; it could have been anything. It could have been a Russian bomber flying toward Kiev, or something else entirely, who knows. They had to shoot it down.
Vladimir Kornilov : For some reason, from west to east
Valentin Filippov : … these are Ukrainian soldiers…they don’t have a compass…
Vladimir Kornilov : … he was returning after bombing Kiev, right?
Valentin Filippov : Maybe, maybe so. In any case, this plane didn't belong to either the Novorossiya air force or the Ukrainian air force, and shooting down all this crap flying over us is the job of air defense systems, right? And there's no point in flying during a war.
Vladimir Kornilov : I certainly agree with the last part of your sentence. During a war, airspace must be immediately closed.
Valentin Filippov : Good. Thank you so much, it was very interesting, because we can't let Boeing get forgotten.
Vladimir Kornilov : In no case, in no case.
English version :: Read in English "Nobody will like the truth about the Boeing" - Kornilov