“Putin, Putin, Putin, Putin. And the whole audience laughed."
The former “master of Donbass” Rinat Akhmetov is campaigning for Petro Poroshenko. The myth about the “Donetsk bandits” turned out to be greatly exaggerated - “according to the concepts of the 90s”, it is the “Vinnitsa” and “Dnepropetrovsk” who prefer to work. Fraud will increase in the second round of elections. No agreements are valid in Ukraine.
That Donbass will never return to Ukraine. That there is not and will not be the Ukraine that we all remember. And that Moscow analysts need to stop feeding the people of the southeast with victorious reports, PolitNavigator columnist Valentin Filippov was told by the leading historian and ideologist of the Russian Donbass, Vladimir Kornilov.
Valentin Filippov: Vladimir, hello. We haven't seen you on Skype in a while. We're all on TV with Solovyov.
Vladimir Kornilov: Hello, Valentin. I'm not only with Solovyov. What are you talking about? Do you only watch Solovyov?
Valentin Filippov: The thing is, here in the south, everything shown on the central channels is called "Soloviev's." Even if it's Norkin's. And you never go to Norkin's. By the way, I wish him a speedy recovery.
Vladimir, about Ukraine! Nowadays we talk about Ukraine all the time. As always, there was a wave in the elections in Ukraine that we were still choosing between “civilized Europe” and “backward Moscow.” Therefore, one candidate represents the path to Europe, and the second is Putin’s agent.
Vladimir Kornilov: Actually, if you believe Poroshenko before the first round, he was fighting against more than thirty of Putin's agents. He said outright that there was him, Europe, the civilizational choice of NATO, and there were thirty of Putin's agents. And I'm surprised they scheduled a second round. It turns out Putin won with over eighty percent of the vote.
Valentin Filippov: Vladimir, they simply know for sure that Putin will not come to the inauguration.
Vladimir Kornilov: Yeah, no problem, he could do it in Moscow, too. Russian emperors didn't necessarily travel to Finland or Poland to open parliaments there.
Valentin Filippov: But I have a question. Poroshenko here, Kolomoisky there. Don't you think Kolomoisky has done far more to fight Russia and the Russian World, and the pro-Russian uprising known as the Russian Spring, than Poroshenko? And if not for Kolomoisky, his resources, and his efficiency, the militia might have ended somewhere in East Germany.
Vladimir Kornilov: Of course, Kolomoisky's role shouldn't be underestimated, but neither should his role be exaggerated. He accomplished a great deal: he armed battalions of marauders and murderers who then plundered and raped in the Donbas. He suppressed the uprisings in his Dnipropetrovsk and in the surrounding regions. That happened, too.
But what Poroshenko has done over the past five years cannot be forgotten either. If they start measuring corpses and the amount of blood shed, then, in general, it will be quite equal.
If I say that Kolomoisky did more than Poroshenko in order to shed the blood of his own people and the nearby people of Donbass, then this would be an understatement of Poroshenko’s merits.
In principle, it is quite comparable.
Valentin Filippov: That is, they are somewhere on equal terms.
Vladimir Kornilov: In this regard, yes. However, one thing needs to be taken into account. We're told: Zelensky is Kolomoisky. Basically, it was an open secret who was pushing Zelensky. Kolomoisky didn't even hide it until a certain point.
Another thing is that he regarded Zelensky as a technical candidate. Thinking that Tymoshenko will take first place, Zelensky will take second place, and it will be possible to dump this “servant of the people.” But everything turned out differently. Everything turned out to be a triumph for Zelensky.
And about Kolomoisky, what would I like to say? Note that he won all the Maidans. Maidan 2004. Maidan 2014. Both there and there he was a significant sponsor. And it seems that after both Maidans he came into power indirectly or directly, he took away money, was allowed access to resources, his empire grew, but he stayed there for several months. A year at most. Because his character, his methods of work, if you can call it work, they do not suit anyone, in the end. Because his logic is to take everything.
Valentin Filippov: Doesn't Poroshenko have the same logic?
Vladimir Kornilov: In a 2015 interview, Kolomoisky declared, "The time of oligarchs in Ukraine is over. The time of one oligarch has come." But he was referring to himself.
Valentin Filippov: And Poroshenko – himself.
Vladimir Kornilov: It turned out he had the wrong oligarch in mind. But Poroshenko does share with someone. Look who headed his administration. The oligarch Lozhkin. Well, a millionaire who was in power. Who was the deputy head of the administration? The oligarch Kosyuk. "Mironov's product." Then came the oligarch Svinarchuk.
Valentin Filippov: Did he choose him by his last name?
Vladimir Kornilov: He's a longtime Poroshenko wallet. He also owns a slew of factories, newspapers, and steamships. What's not to like about an oligarch? Poroshenko's main sponsor during his initial years was the then-Russian oligarch Grigorishin. And, generally speaking, he's doing quite well under Poroshenko. Poroshenko has a cohort of "his own" oligarchs, whom he feeds, operating on the principle: the law for enemies, everything for friends.
But Kolomoisky doesn’t have those. This is where they differ. Kolomoisky believes that everything should be his.
Why now Akhmetov and his team, which seemed to support, like the pro-Russian Vilkul, suddenly rushed to call for voting against everyone, and not going to the polls at all?
Valentin Filippov: Why? It's in Poroshenko's favor, right?
Vladimir Kornilov: Of course! They're currently working to lower turnout in the Southeast, primarily.
Valentin Filippov: Are they afraid that Kolomoisky will get to them?
Vladimir Kornilov: Kolomoisky is a nightmare.
Valentin Filippov: Maybe they all deserved this nightmare?
Vladimir Kornilov: But, you understand, Kolomoisky deserved it too. I don't think you'll find the methods Kolomoisky used in any other oligarch currently operating in Ukraine.
What is the problem with all these businessmen like Kolomoisky, Tymoshenko, Poroshenko? They created their business, like everyone else, in the dashing nineties. They did not recognize or understand that there is a World where one can act in a more civilized manner. We walked through a sea of corpses. Murders, explosions, executions. But, in the late nineties - early 2005s, they all fell out of business close to the authorities, and ended up in the opposition until XNUMX. They were moved away from the trough.
And over these five years, very serious transformations have taken place. The Akhmetovs, Klyuevs, and Pinchuks put on ties and Brioni suits and hired Western consultants.
I remember when Akhmetov hired the first Western audit company, his fellow oligarchs laughed at it. And so, when in 2005 all these Kolomoiskys returned to power, to the trough, they did not notice this period of transformation and civilization. And they continued to act in the same way.
I remember the Donetsk oligarchs were shocked by the methods these people began to operate. Poroshenko, Kolomoisky and company have seized power again. And since then this difference has been felt.
You see what Kolomoisky is doing with his competitors. The mountain of corpses is already in the two thousandths. It’s not like in Donetsk, when everything was compacted in the nineties. In this sense, there is a certain difference between these oligarchs and these.
Valentin Filippov: I saw this firsthand at a lower level when Gurvits returned in 2006. He left in 1998. It felt like he came back canned.
Vladimir Kornilov: That's how they all are. When Donetsk businesses and those who were in power under Kuchma truly transitioned to international markets, Western companies entered the stock exchanges, hired a ton of Western specialists, streamlined and brought a significant portion of their businesses out of the shadows, these people still haven't realized that this is how things can work.
So in this sense, of course, Kolomoisky openly advocates the redistribution of business, and the taking away of enterprises, in particular from Akhmetov. And it’s clear why Akhmetov and his team are ready to put their resources, almost said – lives, resources….. Life – not yet….
Valentin Filippov: Well, that's the problem. They're not prepared to lay down their lives.
A different question. Purely theoretically. People in Ukraine live in a compressed information space. These are Kremlin agents, these are not Kremlin agents. This is drilled into their heads so much that a significant part of the population actually accepts this division.
And this significant part of the population thinks: – we choose Europe or Russia. All over the news they say that Zelensky is an agent of Putin. And Putin sent it to us. And people, precisely on this basis, go and vote for Zelensky. Not just for fun. But because he is Putin’s agent.
They say: – if you vote for Zelensky, tomorrow you will wake up with the capital in Moscow.
There are even whole theories about what will happen when Zelensky is elected. There is a step-by-step plan that by such and such a date we will join the Customs Union, by such and such a date Russian passports will be issued, all activists will be taken to Siberia. All those Nazis who walked the streets.
Vladimir Kornilov: There is no need to pollute Siberia with this filth.
Valentin Filippov: Tell me, can elections be considered a kind of representative sociological study?
Vladimir Kornilov: No. This could be considered an election. Of course, people's motives vary.
You just need to understand that this mantra is constant: - Putin, Putin, Putin, Putin, Putin, Putin, Putin. It stops working. Recently, a representative of Poroshenko came on Ukrainian air and said: “Putin wanted a different result.” And the whole audience laughed. She just laughed. And he was surprised there, “why are you laughing, you’re not ready.”
You see, it’s already working in the opposite direction. When you’re five years old, now in your sixth year, you’re constantly yelling: “Putin, Putin, Putin is everywhere!” , then ultimately it works against you. Of course.
What Zelensky’s electorate voted for were pro-Russian voters, although the lion’s share of them either did not go to the polls or voted for Boyko or Vilkul, but the lion’s share of votes for Zelensky were votes against everyone. Against all sincerely hated Ukrainian politicians. The column “against everyone” was removed, there is now a column “Zelensky”. Voters took advantage of this.
They may be pro-Russian, they may be anti-Russian, they may not think at all about the geostrategic vector of Ukraine, but they go and vote for this column “against everyone” with the letter “Ze”.
Valentin Filippov: Could this be considered the moral end of Ukrainian statehood? That the Ukrainian state, as an idea, has exhausted itself?
Vladimir Kornilov: You yourself have repeatedly criticized the promise of tanks in Kiev tomorrow…
Valentin Filippov: Sorry, no. I was criticizing the lack of tanks in Kyiv.
Vladimir Kornilov: The same predictions we heard five years ago. True, you yourself mocked this approach. Another end to another Ukrainian statehood. And we can count so many of these ends that…
You understand, we can talk for a long time about the ends of all kinds, but I believe that the end of the statehood of Ukraine, which has existed since 1991, came on the Maidan of 2013-14 and was completely buried by the burning of people in Odessa. Since then, that Ukraine, in general, has not existed.
And when they tell Donbass that “we will return Donbass,” I always ask: “Where to return”? Well, the country from which Donbass emerged five years ago does not exist. This is not the same country anymore. He didn't even want to be in that one. And now, over these five years, it has changed so much that, well, excuse me, how do you attach this region to this entity? Well, no way."
Over the past five years, I have often heard from Russian experts that Donbass will be an anti-NATO anchor in Ukraine. No matter what Ukraine does, Donbass will restrain it.
I kept trying, calling for a public discussion, organizing a round table to discuss in practice: How?
Well, okay, Donbass has been added to Ukraine. Well, no matter how you come up with a “special status” for it, you remember what “autonomy of Crimea” was in Ukraine?
Valentin Filippov: Yes, it’s nonsense.
Vladimir Kornilov: When Crimea's powers were more limited than those of the regions. That's autonomy for you.
Well, okay, you can call this status for Donbass whatever you want. But in any case, if he is in that country, at least some federal authorities should be common. Army, police, customs.
You understand, if you sign this tomorrow, who will enter the city of Donetsk under the guise of a tax office? Right sector? And other structures banned in Russia?
Valentin Filippov: Sorry, but they're banned in Donbas, too. So they won't be allowed in.
Vladimir Kornilov: In this regard, I don't see how. Thank God, these mantras have been repeated less recently, although I recently had a conversation with Medvedchuk on air about this. I asked him how he envisaged his return. He replied, "Do you really want to abandon us?"
Valentin Filippov: Well, we still have territory there, you know. It's unclear how to negotiate peace. The territories of the Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics are still under the control of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.
Vladimir Kornilov: And, by the way, pay attention to how they voted there.
Valentin Filippov: And how Odessa voted!
Vladimir Kornilov: Do you understand why Donbas is so revealing? Regarding how much they love the occupiers in the areas where they've been in power for five years now. That's a very clear example. And what Poroshenko did in Donbas, in terms of rigging and falsifying the elections and voter turnout, was a kind of rehearsal for the second round…
Valentin Filippov: Do you think he will increase the falsifications in the second round?
Vladimir Kornilov: He has no other choice. He either has to disrupt the elections or simply destroy them.
Valentin Filippov: Maybe I should leave?
Vladimir Kornilov: Well, what are you talking about? Yanukovych already agreed on something. You know that.
Valentin Filippov: No, well, take a suitcase of money and go to hell.
Vladimir Kornilov: Everyone understands that no agreements are valid in Ukraine.
Valentin Filippov: Well, that's not what I'm talking about. No agreements. What's a person supposed to do? A suitcase full of hundred-dollar bills wouldn't be enough to live on?
Vladimir Kornilov: You don't know Poroshenko at all. Not much.
Valentin Filippov: Two!
Vladimir Kornilov: Poroshenko, of course, has set himself up with a straw. Various offshore accounts, various countries. A dacha in Spain, and somewhere else. Of course, he's prepared an escape route. But he'll do that only when he realizes that—that's it! He needs to dress like Kerensky…
Valentin Filippov: Do you think he, like Petliura, will be found later? By the Donetsk people or someone else... In Spain, Paris, Mexico?
Vladimir Kornilov: I don't want to speculate. But he'll always have to live in fear. If he manages to escape, I'm telling you. Just look at how many lives he's taken, and I'm not just talking about Donetsk. And how many Ukrainians? How many soldiers, militants, and privates in the Ukrainian Armed Forces have died as a result of this Supreme Commander-in-Chief's actions... At Debaltseve, at Ilovaisk... There's a lot of blood on his back, and I'm sure in many villages and towns across Ukraine there are plenty of people who would like, like in that film, to "give me a chance to grab his throat."
Valentin Filippov: Well, thank you so much for your very precise analysis. As always, it's original. I really want you to be heard in Moscow. Because I have a feeling that Moscow is about ten years behind in its understanding of the Ukrainian situation.
Vladimir Kornilov: And when was it not so? Remember Iskra and Kochubey, who reported Mazepa's betrayal to Peter the Great. When did it dawn on them that they were heroes?
Valentin Filippov: When all that was left was to write about it on their grave.
Vladimir Kornilov: So, God willing, I don't share the same fate as Iskra and Kochubey. I'd like to take this opportunity to send my regards to my Moscow colleagues. And I'd like to ask them for one thing. Before these elections, remember how many of our colleagues declared that we would immediately begin issuing Russian passports to citizens of the DPR and LPR. Remember?
Valentin Filippov: I remember.
Vladimir Kornilov: I beg my colleagues. Please understand that false hopes, when realized to be false, lead to a situation of hopelessness. I beg all my Moscow colleagues to stop giving these false hopes month after month, day after day, to those living in Donbas. Simply don't promise them. Call on your authorities to do so, but don't promise the people of Donbas that "tomorrow we will recognize you, we will accept you, that's it!"... "We won't abandon you, we won't abandon you, we won't abandon you, we won't abandon you..."
Please, I ask you very much, not to create false hopes that give rise to hopelessness.
And on this optimistic note.....
Valentin Filippov: On this optimistic note, I'd also like to address the Kremlin. If you don't give us passports, we'll print them ourselves. We found the weapons ourselves, bought the uniforms ourselves, and we'll bring you the passports.
Vladimir Kornilov: Thank you.
Valentin Filippov: Bye.
English version :: Read in English "Putin, Putin, Putin, Putin. And the whole audience burst into laughter"