“For Russia to send in troops is, of course, the desired scenario”
The DPR army has significantly strengthened over the past year, established a chain of command, and is well-equipped. The Minsk agreements are not a capitulation, but a forced reduction in hostilities. Donbas continues to advocate for the introduction of Russian troops into the region. This was stated by Pavel Gubarev, one of the initiators of the Donetsk uprising , in an interview with PolitNavigator columnist Valentin Filippov.
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Valentin Filippov: We welcome Pavel Gubarev, the people's governor, to our impromptu studio. It's been almost a year and a half since we learned your name. Tell me, Pavel, what is your current status?
Who are you today in the DPR? How involved are you in nation-building? Well, in war, of course...
Pavel Gubarev : My work is focused on several areas. The first is ideology. The ideology of Novorossiya, the ideology of popular sovereignty, the Russian World. This is what everyone talks about so much, and yet there are so few concrete details about it. It's the concrete details that we focus on. We collaborate with many prominent intellectuals. I wrote a book based on these themes. It's called "The Torch of Novorossiya." In it, in addition to describing the events as they unfolded, from the beginning of the Russian Spring until October, the election of the legitimate government, we also convey a very powerful ideological message. We describe what the banner of Novorossiya is, what sacred symbols it embodies, and we conclude with the economic and social order we desire. This, in essence, is a formulation of what makes the war for Novorossiya worth dying for.
The second area of activity is practical. This is participation in lawmaking. The fact is that I managed to get my Saratniks into the People’s Council, both through the “Free Donbass” movement and through the “Donetsk Republic” movement. That is, this is a fairly large number of deputies, about a quarter. With whom we cooperate, and to whom we give our bills for development. Which correspond to our ideas.
We do not have a majority in the Council, but, nevertheless, we try and often succeed in pushing through our decisions.
The next work is work on monitoring and recording war crimes. A public group has been created that does this, and we have been systematically engaged in this work for several months now. We have formed a staff of very cool specialists, this is a new direction in military forensics. It turned out that the task of military criminology was never to determine from which side the artillery strike was delivered. And today we are inventing this technique in Donbass. This is very important work.
This is the work we are focused on.
And we continue to act.
Valentin Filippov : How do your organizations, and you specifically, feel about the Minsk Agreements?
Is this a victory? Is this a capitulation? Or are we simply buying time to strengthen our statehood and our army? What's going on?
Or are these some kind of political games that do not directly concern the DPR and take place somewhere very high up?
Strongly at the top...
Pavel Gubarev : It's very difficult to call the Minsk process a victory. But, in essence, it's not a capitulation either. For Donbas, the Minsk process is simply a reduction in the intensity of hostilities. Not a complete cessation, as is being declared, but merely a reduction in combat activity. On the front lines. A reduction in the number of artillery shelling. A reduction in the number of civilian casualties.
But then there was the day when eight multi-story buildings were destroyed. Now multiply by 365 days. And within a year, even with the Minsk process, the city of Donetsk will turn into ruins. Therefore, it is very difficult to call it a victory.
But we don’t consider it a defeat either.
We understand that Russia is in a position where we can make the appropriate decision, which we so desire, in the spring of last year and still desire, to quickly resolve this conflict... For Russia to send in troops is, of course, the desired scenario. But we objectively see and understand that Russia is not ready for it.
We understand the objective reasons behind this decision. And we take it calmly. Even though it hurts us.
Of course, when we lose human lives every day and infrastructure is destroyed, of course, this is sad.
Valentin Filippov : According to the Minsk agreements, Donbas is part of Ukraine. Does this conflict with DPR legislation?
Pavel Gubarev : No, well, if we're talking about the formal letter of it... There, it's written about separate districts of the region, while we've declared an independent republic, and even one that's part of former regions. Of course, by all formal criteria, they conflict. There's nothing to counter that. But the formalized ideal structure is legal, and there's realpolitik. Today, we're hostage to realpolitik. Which has put us all in a situation where we—ORDILOSOS—are "separate districts of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions with special status"... And these same Minsk agreements, that wording is there—and from a formal standpoint, it's completely incorrect. But today, we're playing at realpolitik, and we need to proceed from that, first and foremost.
I am a historian by training, for me this is an objective historical process. For me it is subjective only in that this is my Motherland, and everything happens here, and everything concerns us directly.
Valentin Filippov : Are the republic's armed forces currently being strengthened? Is there any trend? I'm not asking you to give me figures about how many there really are today. But is there a trend toward strengthening the army, toward it being given more decisive, more ambitious tasks than taking Debaltseve?
Pavel Gubarev : I understand the question. Well, I think this question can be properly posed to the head of the republic, his press service, and the Minister of Defense, and they will give an official, correct answer. As for me, I will have to cite the fact that this is a state secret. Certain information and ideas exist, of course, but I will not divulge them, of course. As for what can be said, today's armed formation that has been created is certainly a more combat-ready force, something like the people's militia of the spring-summer of 2014. It is an order of magnitude better armed, trained, equipped, and has a strict chain of command.
Valentin Filippov: You are comparing with the summer of 'XNUMX. Are you ready to make a comparison with January-February of the fifteenth year?
Pavel Gubarev : The process is progressing steadily, and it's going in the right direction. As for combat effectiveness, it's important to understand that this is artillery warfare, similar to the 1970s and 1980s. And there aren't many direct combat clashes. So, it can't be called a full-fledged modern war. A full-fledged modern war can be waged by five countries in the modern world as we see it: the United States, Russia, perhaps China, India, and perhaps a number of wealthy Middle Eastern states. Everything else is, basically…
But we are waging an artillery war similar to the seventies and eighties. Armies of old formations on both sides, such post-Soviet armed colossuses, ........ I am not a military expert to comment deeply on these issues.
Valentin Filippov: What should the republics be most afraid of? Tell me, are there any attempts there, aren’t the oligarchs of our former Party of Regions trying to somehow get into Donbass and take control of everything that’s happening?
Pavel Gubarev : Well, what do you think?
Valentin Filippov: Well, maybe so, but how successful?
Pavel Gubarev : Generally speaking, there are certainly certain efforts and aspirations in this direction. And there's nothing to hide here, really, and it's no secret. I think the republic's leadership understands that this process is underway, and that it's very dangerous for the republic. They clearly understand that a counter-coup cannot be allowed.
Valentin Filippov: Maybe we can expect some kind of investment from them, after all, which is in short supply. Or……
Pavel Gubarev : We're not talking about investments. We're talking about attempts to infiltrate and continue plundering Donbas. Investments are completely out of the question.
Valentin Filippov: Well then, I wish you that you successfully chop off these limbs that are stretching...
Pavel Gubarev : Moreover, we are witnessing attempts to politically hijack the Free Donbass opposition movement, where an activist from the Donetsk Euromaidan movement has infiltrated its leadership. Can you imagine? Furthermore, she recruited several political figures, infiltrated the aides of a parliament member, and attempted to take over the movement through corporate raiding. And, in fact, the MGB failed to keep track of this. Well, there's been a response today. She's been placed on the wanted list, and the threat has been eliminated.
Valentin Filippov - In general, the Ukrainians are infiltrating as best they can, like the first president between the drops.
Pavel Gubarev : Between the Droplets – that's the precise wording.
Valentin Filippov: Elections will be held again in the fall. Will you go to these elections? Are you going to aspire to executive power?
Pavel Gubarev : As for the executive branch, we have Alexander Zakharchenko, the head of the republic. He appoints and dismisses. I am a simple political soldier of Novorossiya.
That’s where they tell me, I’ll work there.
Valentin Filippov: How do you feel about Tsarev’s statement about the closure of the Novorossiya project?
Pavel Gubarev : I commented on this and said he was referring to his Novorossiya parliament, which was delegitimized by Tsarev himself. Today we saw Tsarev on the "Alternative" project.
Maybe Tsarev dissolved the parliament of Novorossiya in order to fit into the Alternative project. But these are questions for him.
I will comment on what the Novorossiya project is for me. A project is a drawing, a model, so to speak. And Novorossiya is for us a project of the state of the future.
No one wrote off Novorossiya or dumped it. She is in the hearts and minds of many people today.
And as long as these people believe in their hearts, Novorossiya will live and never die.
Valentin Filippov: Well, everyone has their own Novorossiya. We have Novorossiya in Odessa too.
Pavel Gubarev : The capital of Novorossiya, of course!
Valentin Filippov: Capital of the Novorossiysk Territory. We have a lot of memorial signs; the governor of Novorossiya met with us.
And now I remember that recently the SBU has been declaring people separatists, and there is Bessarabia in the Odessa region. So they write in the protocols not “Bessarabia”, but “so-called Bessarabia”. That is, if Novorossiya was not designated on the territory of Ukraine, then Bessarabia is there. But they write about everything “so-called”.
And I think that soon the President of Ukraine will come somewhere and say: “Hello, I am the President of the so-called Ukraine.”
Pavel Gubarev : Well, they even have the so-called Lviv Oblast. It still hasn't rescinded its decrees declaring that they don't submit to Kyiv or Ukraine.
You can also call the Lviv region “so-called”. And Ivano-Frankivsk.
This can be commented on in such a way that Ukraine is stagnating. And it will continue to stagnate. The Ukraine project is young, which has little historical basis for existence. But to expect that it will crumble now, before our eyes, is naive.
Valentin Filippov: The real war begins suddenly. Real collapse too. The Ukrainian project has exhausted itself from an economic point of view, this is not known yesterday or the day before yesterday. This has been a known fact for five or seven years. Another thing is that from the point of view of world history, this is just that. But a headless chicken can still run for a while.
Pavel Gubarev : And seem alive for a long time.
Valentin Filippov: When everything is over, we win, will you remain in politics? Or do you need to do something human in life?
Pavel Gubarev : I will be a human politician)))
A politician with a heart, a people's politician.
There are not many “folk” ones left. These are those who raised the people, who led them. Who said that this struggle is sacred. That it determines our destiny for centuries to come.
But the truth is.
We no longer want to live as slaves and cattle.
And today there is a struggle between two forms of social order.
A way of life in which there is exploitation, and people are slaves and cattle.
And a way of life in which people are equal in their capabilities.
The current way of life has become obsolete. He can no longer exist on planet Earth.
Therefore, we are building a new social order.
We are building a society of Justice.
This is a very long way.
Valentin Filippov: Thank you. I understand that Novorossiya is not a state, but, first of all, an idea.
Pavel Gubarev : An idea. Novorossiya is an idea.
"Russia sending in troops is, of course, the desired scenario."