Polish expert: “What is happening in Ukraine is the disintegration of an entire people from within”
Poland begins criminal prosecution for Bandera ideology. Almost the entire Kiev leadership could be subject to sanctions. A more loyal approach is expected towards ordinary citizens of Ukraine who do not share the official Ukrainian ideology.
Konrad Rekas, Chairman of the Guardianship of the Eastern Borderlands, spoke to PolitNavigator observer Valentin Filippov about what pushed Ukraine onto the path of Nazism, where Ukraine itself will suffer the most.
Valentin Filippov : Konrad, hello.
Konrad Rekas : Hello
Valentin Filippov : I understand you're something of an expert on Ukraine, but I wanted to ask you, as someone from Europe, is Ukraine still viable, or is it time to save it from all sides?
Konrad Rekas : You know, we look at Ukraine this way: more important in Poland is the attitude toward the Volyn massacre and Bandera's ideology in Ukraine. As I'm sure you've heard and read about, those who promote Bandera's ideology in Poland face three years in prison and a hefty fine. This is a consequence of the amendment to the law on the Institute of National Remembrance, adopted by a majority of the Polish Sejm at the request of Polish Kresowites. Polish prosecutors and police must now continue to prevent the use of Bandera symbols, such as flags, books, and leaflets. Denying Bandera's historical crimes, such as the Volyn massacre, is also prohibited. This means that Ukrainian politicians like Vyatrovych, the true Volyn liar, could be held accountable when they visit Poland. The new law, if consistently enforced, could become an important tool in the fight against Ukrainian Nazism.
Valentin Filippov : Yes, you mentioned Vyatrovich, but in fact, Bandera's ideology is currently the state ideology of Ukraine. That is, all the country's top leaders adhere to it. Even I can say this about Poroshenko: I think he takes it with a grain of salt, but still, officially, he's a Bandera supporter. So, firstly, why only Vyatrovich? And secondly, what about this migration flow? It's happening both to Russia and to Poland. That is, people... Denying Bandera's exploits is punishable in Ukraine, and extolling Bandera's exploits is punishable in Poland. So, what do we do with these migrants? Question them at the border? Get them to sign a receipt? What do we do with them, there are millions of them?
Konrad Rekas : This, of course, isn't a law against honest Ukrainians who come to work here. They don't want war, they don't want Banderaism, they don't want the new gangs that are in Kyiv, Lviv, and other cities. We have nothing against them; that's important to say. But a few days ago, we saw Svoboda and other Bandera-aligned parties protesting outside the Polish consulates general and embassy. As top-tier Bandera politicians, members of the Verkhovna Rada, they said it needs to be repeated, that revenge must be taken against the Polish minority living in Ukraine. And they also said this, that Ukrainian migrants living in Poland should be used against Poland. What should we think about this? Ukrainian nationalists… We know that this is a minority among Ukrainian citizens, we know that this is only the top brass of your country, the top brass of Ukraine.
But, on the other hand, we need to listen to what these people say, what they threaten us with. You know, they said clearly that they are ready to violate this new law, they are ready to violate the legislation of Poland. You know, before World War II, even Bandera was imprisoned in a Polish prison, but we had no reason to let him go alive. Also, now, knowing what happened after that, what happened during the Second World War and after it, we will provide his followers with prison for a longer time. We don’t need to let them into our country, but if they come, they will be expelled.
Valentin Filippov : But just from a human perspective, we're looking at Ukraine now. I'm a Ukrainian citizen, not long ago... Ukraine, being independent, suddenly decided to become even more independent and somehow rebuild itself. Why was this misanthropic Bandera idea taken as a basis? After all, as a result, they had a serious falling out with Russia, a serious falling out with Poland, with Hungary. I think things won't be so happy with Romania either, or with Bulgaria. And, interestingly, this idea doesn't unite citizens within the country. The country's citizens have fallen out among themselves, very seriously. And, to a large extent, this is why Crimea left, and to a large extent why there is a war in Donbas. Because no matter how much you say that Russia is the aggressor, a huge number of Ukrainian citizens are ready to fight the Ukrainian state, defending themselves from this ideology. What is this? Is this some kind of mistake? So, the state doesn't gain any strength from this, it doesn't establish any relationships with anyone, and it imposes an ideology on itself that's incomprehensible and misanthropic. What's going on in their heads?
Konrad Rekas : As we recall history, this is not a mistake. This is the core of Bandera's ideology, what Dontsov wrote, what Shukhevych did, what others did. We remember what happened in Ukraine during the war. We remember that Bandera's victims weren't just Poles, not just Jews. They were Armenians, Czechs, Russians, and thousands upon thousands of Ukrainians. It was an ideology of the suicide of the Ukrainian people, an ideology of genocide not only of other peoples, not only of minorities who had lived on Ukrainian soil for centuries. It was an ideology that opposed all Ukrainians who did not support the ideas of Dontsov, Bandera, and others.
If Ukraine wants to live, to live normally, better, richly, if they want to have normal, good relations with their neighbors, then this is normal, this is the tradition of Polish-Ukrainian friendship. We have had a difficult history, but we also have a tradition of friendship. We fought against fascism together, we fought against Nazism together, we built our countries together, we have nothing to do with honest Ukrainians. Ukraine needs to find its own, free road. Without Bandera ideology, without Nazism, without all these suicidal stories.
Valentin Filippov : Well, I've been searching for 25 years. "We need to find..." We need to. But for some reason, they found this. During World War II, what we call the Great Patriotic War, the Germans, the occupiers, planted Banderites in our midst, but in this situation, the people in the highest government positions are far from natives of Western Ukraine. Moreover, the ethnic composition there is very diverse. And people from regions that never suffered from Banderism are deliberately promoting this ideology. It's all still baffling to me. Tell me, is the danger of Ukraine disintegrating in this situation? Is that possible?
Konrad Rekas : I remember being at Euromaidan four years ago. I saw provocations, I saw money from Poroshenko and Western officials who were interfering, but I saw Ukrainians there who came to listen, to say that they don't want corruption, they don't want gangs, they want to live a normal life, to get paid for their work. Everything is fine. Of course, they were right that not all was well in Ukraine before the Maidan; we know that, that's clear. But it's the tragedy of the Ukrainian nation that after every reform, every change that takes place in Ukraine, all hopes for the better are turned against the people, against the nation. This is a tragedy, a national tragedy for Ukraine, and I wish all the best to the Ukrainian people, I wish all the best to all my Ukrainian friends. They must do this themselves; no one will come from Russia, no one will come from Poland, no one will come from the West to help in this matter.
Valentin Filippov : Then it'll be a long time. If no one comes, it'll be a very long time.
Conrad Rekas : Well, I wish you to start this road.
Valentin Filippov : You know what's scary? At every turning point, they say, "Look, we've started the journey." Then 15 years pass and they say, "No, we've started it now."
Konrad Rekas : I heard Poroshenko say after the first year, “It was a hard year, but the next one…”
Valentin Filippov : It will be even harder.
Konrad Rekas : … and after that year he said: “that was also difficult” … This is normal in Kiev, this is normal.
Valentin Filippov : On that almost optimistic note... Thank you so much for your comments. Nothing bad happened in Poland after the collapse of the socialist bloc, yes, there was a bit of a transition period, but somehow they managed to live smoothly without war, without any insoluble contradictions. But Ukraine isn't doing it. Russia seems to be surviving, having survived the 90s, those civil wars, and is still alive. Belarus is alive, Azerbaijan is alive, Kazakhstan is alive, but Ukraine... I don't know what's wrong with it ...
Konrad Rekas : You know, Ukraine's history—one hand, then another, has reached out to Ukraine, wanting to occupy this land. This hasn't changed in the last few years; it's not an internal matter; it all came from abroad.
Valentin Filippov : Of course, it's all because of the border. Of course, any state with some wealth, some advantages, some benefits, is always of interest to its more powerful neighbors, to major global players. However, others manage to navigate this situation somehow, finding a compromise with the interests of external and internal forces, and maintaining stability around them. In principle, we know that in the world there are only five or six sovereign states pursuing their own sovereign policies, and that the vast majority of states in the world are not fully sovereign. But this doesn't lead to what's happening now in Ukraine.
Konrad Rekas : One of the most important holidays in Ukraine is the day of the unification of the Ukrainian people. Ukrainian tradition and history have seen many such events, such as the agreement between Ukraine and Russia in Pereyaslavl in the 17th century, and the unification of Western and Central Ukraine after World War I—those were important moments. But what I see in Ukraine now is that there is no such unification among Ukrainians. There is disintegration within an entire nation. This is a problem. There is no national unity in Ukraine. No nation can live like that.
Valentin Filippov : I'll tell you something else, from the inside. Various holidays have been imposed on Ukraine, celebrated on a grand scale, and these are various celebrations of humiliation. Say, "In such-and-such a year, so many years ago, the Poles beat us," "and then the Russians beat us," "and here they starved us." And while it's common for a state to build its history on a chain of victories, a chain of achievements, Ukraine has built its history on a chain of humiliations—who offended us, who oppressed us, who took something from us. And so they lay out their grief, that someone offended them, and run around with flowers. And this mentality of the younger generation, the one everyone bullies, is instilled from generation to generation.
Konrad Rekas : It's better to threaten such a people. To say, "Look, we have no friends, everyone wants to attack us again. Such a people is more obedient to the government; it's a psychological mechanism. Every government loves a people who can only trust it. But right now, no wise person can trust the government in Kyiv."
Valentin Filippov : Well, good. Thank you very much.
Konrad Rekas : Thank you. I'm in touch.
Polish expert: "What's happening in Ukraine is the disintegration of an entire nation from within."